10: Sealing This Sankofa

Hello, our very dear, esteemed, and beloved audience and communities! This is Jacqui, writing with our final batch of show notes for the “Under the Sycamore Tree” podcast. Here are our show notes for our final Episode 10: “Sealing this Sankofa.” Possible triggers in this episode include climate change, racism, European colonisation, U.S. imperialism and neoliberal capitalism, patriarchy, homophobia, and transphobia. 

Remember that you can find out more about the Women’s Voice and Leadership - Caribbean partner organizations on our shared funders’ websites: Astraea Lesbian Foundation for Justice and Equality Fund. Also, learn more about the WVL partnership between these two funders here.  

The passages in this episode, in order, are: 

• Unraveling, a novel by Dr. Karen Lord of Barbados. Published in New York, NY, USA by DAW Books in 2019. This passage is taken from page 102.

• “The Race for Theory,” a Black Feminist academic article by the late Dr. Barbara Christian (St. Thomas & California, USA). Her article was published in volume 14, issue 1, of the journal Feminist Studies (Spring 1988, pages 67 - 79).  

• We closed this episode with multiple passages from Kei Miller’s novel, Augustown, Published in New York, NY, USA by Pantheon in 2016. The passages come from pages 115 - 116, 144, and 232. 

You can find former USVI State Senator Janelle K. Sauraw’s July 4th post here on her Instagram profile, @jksauraw. Check out Democracy Now’s suite of coverage on U.S. imperialism, which provided rich references for this episode. We were specifically informed by the following of their reports/stories: 

• “How to Hide an Empire”: Daniel Immerwahr on the History of the Greater United States” (March 5, 2019)

• “Juan González: In Surprise Move, Gorsuch Challenges U.S. Colonialism in SCOTUS Ruling on Puerto Rico” (April 27, 2022) 

• “The Monroe Doctrine, Revisited: How 200 Years of U.S. Policy Have Helped to Destabilize the Americas” (April 27, 2023)

We are also indebted to the example of Zora’s Daughters, as well as their syllabi. The Caribbean Sheroes Initiative, led by UNESCO with UWI’s Institute of Gender and Development Studies, has compiled a host of resources that you all might be interested in. You will even see our own Dave-Ann featured in the interview on their website!

Yours deeply, sincerely, and truly,

Jacqui.

Bonus: Mothering Organisers

We would like to offer you some bonus content as we wrap up our final full episode, Ep. 10, “Sealing this Sankofa.” ‘

This short bonus episode, “Mothering Organisers” features two interview excerpts which we did not include in the episodes. Candacy McEwan of Guyana Trans United and Amira Teul of Toledo Maya Women’s Council transport us back to their girl- / young adulthood selves, recounting how their mother’s built and nourished a foundation for their ongoing organizing. Their experiences of being mothered is also the foundation of what we can think of as their womanist approach to organizers - a commitment to working, patiently, with families, and being a support in any way, including extra-programmatically. Triggers include transphobia, misogyny, domestic violence, and death. 

9: Contemplating a Caribbean Rematriation: Indigenous Women’s Organizing

Hello lovely audience! Here are our show notes for our Episode 9: “Contemplating a Caribbean Rematriation: Indigenous Women’s Organizing”. Possible triggers include child abuse, child marriage, child pregnancy, intimate partner violence, and working with the police. The organizers and organizations featured in this episode are:

• Amira Teul of Belize’s Toledo Maya Women’s Council, based in Belize’s Toledo District. The Toledo Maya Women’s Council (TMWC) is one of the first organizations established in Belize to create a safe space for indigenous women and girls and enable their participation, representation and leadership in public policy and decision-making spaces, mostly at the community level. Founded in 1998, the organization’s mission is to break harmful norms, advocate and educate on rights while respecting the identity of women and girls, giving them a voice and providing them with networks through community outreach. Visit them on Facebook and on Instagram @tmwcofficial.

• Paulette Jacobs-Allicock and Gloria Duarte of Makushi Research Unit, based in North Rupununi, Guyana. The Makushi Research Unit (MRU) is an independent collective founded in 1995, that is self-led by indigenous women and which conducts social, economic and ecological research within North Rupununi, Guyana. The organization is part of the North Rupununi District Development Board, which is a representative umbrella organization of 20 indigenous villages and communities in North Rupununi. MRU plays an important role in understanding and promoting local knowledge systems and cultural affirmation and indigenous leadership. Visit the North Rupununi District Development Board’s website.   

• Immaculata Casimero of Wapichan Women’s Movement, based in South Rupununi, Guyana. Wapichan Women’s Movement (WWC) is the women’s arm of the South Rupununi District Council, a representative indigenous organization in South Rupununi. WWC was founded in 2017 and it is led by a working group consisting of 10 Wapichan and Macushi women of various ages and experiences, from across the Wapichan Wi’izi community, who have been involved in community organizing, capacity-building and livelihoods projects. WWC represents the interests of women and its mandate is to bolster the role that indigenous women play in protecting the land and natural resources, retaining cultural identity and addressing the social issues affecting indigenous women’s rights. Visit South Rupununi District Council on Facebook, and visit Immaculata’s Twitter (@ImmaCasimero)!

You can read Guyana’s 2006 Amerindian Act, which Immaculatta references, here and here. Read the Caribbean Court of Justice judgment for Maya Leaders Alliance et Al v Attorney General, the case which Amira references. You can also read more about the case on the CARICOM website and the United Nations’ Refugee Agency’s (UNHCR) website.

As mentioned in the episode, we are grateful to the All my Relations podcast and team for informing our thinking on this episode. The following episodes were especially instructive for us:

• “Rematriate” (April 6, 2023)

• “Black & Native Futures: Liberation and Sovereignty”, a conversation with Nikkita Oliver” (June 10, 2022)

• “Black Native Kinship with Amber Starks” (April 15, 2022)

“Black Native History with Dr. Tiya Miles” (March 18, 2022)

8: Labour, Lands, Cooperatives

Hello dear audience! Here are our show notes for our Episode 8: “Labour, Lands, Cooperatives”. Possible triggers include (neo-)colonialism, land theft, legacies of monoculture, domestic violence, sex work criminalisation, (neo-) colonialism, class discrimination, patriarchy, sex shaming, and the impact of climate change. The organizers and organizations featured in this episode are:

• Keithlin Caroo, Founder and Executive Director of Helen’s Daughters, based in St. Lucia. Helen’s Daughters is an organization founded in 2016 to promote the economic development of rural women through adaptive agricultural techniques, capacity-building, and improved market access. More specifically, the organization aims to expand opportunities for rural women who work in agriculture; promote financial and digital inclusion for rural women in aspects of agricultural outputs; foster female entrepreneurship and enhance the productivity of women-owned enterprises; enhance the voices of rural women in decision-making related to agricultural policy and beyond; eliminate legal barriers to female economic empowerment; and reduce gender pay gaps in the agricultural sector. Visit their Facebook page, their instagram profile @helensdaughters, and, of course, their website!

• Dr. Nicola Suraleigh, Executive Director of Integrated Health Outreach based in Antigua & Barbuda. Integrated Health Outreach (IHO) is an organization which works at the intersection of gender, climate change, and health. The organization was founded in 2013 to meet the neglected needs of women and girls, and other vulnerable populations. IHO delivers programs to build eco-sustainability and advance health management as measures to bolster the resiliency of vulnerable groups. The organization is committed to addressing the challenges faced by small island developing states, including climate change and natural disasters, in relation to how these issues exacerbate economic, social and gender inequalities. Visit them on Facebook, Instagram (@iho_ab)and Twitter (@integrated_iho), and make it over to their website!  

• Denise Carr and Philona Roberts of SUCOS. Read more about SUCOS in our show notes for Episode 7: “A Self-Possessed Selfhood, or Sex Workers to the Front!”

7: A Self-Possessed Selfhood, or Sex Workers to the Front!

Hello dear audience! Here are our show notes for our Episode 7: “A Self-Possessed Selfhood, or Sex Workers to the Front!” 

Possible triggers in this episode include sex work criminalisation, (neo-) colonialism, class discrimination, patriarchy, sex shaming, and the impact of climate change. We focus on Suriname Coalition of Sex Workers (SUCOS) for this episode. We spoke to SUCOS Founder Denise Carr and member Philona Roberts in early 2021. You can read more about SUCOS on Equality Fund’s website and Red Umbrella’s website (also here). Equality Fund is our mutual funding partner and Red Umbrella is one of SUCOS’s international funding partners referred to in this episode. 

The audio from this episode is from a larger conversation which Carla guided between SUCOS alongside rural women’s agricultural organizations Integrated Health Outreach of Antigua & Barbuda and Helen’s Daughters of St. Lucia. This larger conversation will be featured in our next episode, #8 “Land, Labor Cooperatives”.  

And this is a note directly from me, Jacqui. I want to address and clarify a line in this episode’s introduction: “First of all, sex workers, whether it is a livelihood chosen or forced upon you, contribute hugely to the society!” Carla nor I intended for “livelihood forced upon you” to mean human trafficking. By extension, I want to make it clear that I am not saying that human trafficking or trafficked persons contribute hugely to our societies. Trafficked persons and the value we gain from this is certainly a conversation, but not one for this episode. This is line I intended to refer to socioeconomic factors that make sex work not a first (or even fifth) option, but perhaps the only option or only one of a few poor options. I extend my apologies that I wasn’t able to catch and clarify this before our production and release of this episode. Please reach out to us via Rebel Women Lit and / or Queerly Stated’s social media accounts to discuss this in more depth. - Jacqui

6: Language & Leadership

Hello dear audience! Welcome back after our short summer break. Here are our show notes for our Episode 6: “Language & Leadership.” 

Possible triggers in this episode include sex work, child sexual abuse, and domestic violence. The organizers and organizations featured in this episode are:

• Michele Irving, Founder and Coordinator of POWA, or Productive Organization for Women in Action (Belize). POWA advocates for the rights of women and girls to live lives free from violence, exploitation and abuse. Its members are certified peer counselors and provide outreach to communities to raise awareness on human rights, Sexual Reproductive Health Rights, Gender Based Violence, HIV/AIDS and the gender inequalities affecting women and girls. Visit POWA online via their Facebook page; and their Equality Fund webpage. 

• Dylis McDonald, Project Coordinator for CIWIL, the Caribbean Institute of Women in Leadership (Regional / Antigua & Barbuda). CIWiL is  a non-political, multi-partisan, and independent organization founded in 2005 to monitor, strengthen and increase women’s political participation and leadership in the Caribbean. The organization aims to increase the number of women in politics, leadership and decision-making at all levels in the Caribbean through high-quality training, networking, research, analysis and advocacy. CIWIL acts as a coordinating and implementing mechanism for a regional programme of work developed and delivered by a network of organizations and individuals, to advance women’s transformational leadership. Visit CIWiL online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; and Twitter: @CIWiL. 

5: Stats & Storytelling (Fi Di Dolly Dem)

Hello dear audience! This is Jacqui, writer and researcher of “Under the Sycamore Tree.” Here are our show notes for our Episode 5: “Stats & Storytelling: Fi di Dolly dem.” Please note that we will take a brief break for the summer and return with the second and final batch of our episodes on (x date). 

Possible triggers in this episode include abortion, domestic violence, HIV+ / AIDS, SRH, mental health, class. The organizers and organizations featured in this episode are:

• Sarah-Ann Gresham, Co-Founder of Intersect Antigua, (Antigua and Barbuda). Intersect Antigua is a Queeribean feminist collective committed to gender justice and to centering the experiences and needs of the most marginalized among us, including queer, trans, and non-binary people and those with disabilities who are Black, Indigenous, and identify as people of colour. Intersect is here to re-imagine a world where Caribbean women, men, and non-binary people are free to live and love in societies where they are cared for and cherished. Check out Intersect’s literary magazine on their website! Find them also at their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; Twitter: @intersect_anu; IG: @intersect.anu; and LinkedIn. 

• Shantae Porteous, who, at the time of our discussion, was Health & Wellness Officer at WE Change JA (Jamaica). Women’s Empowerment for Change (WE Change) is a feminist organization focused on advocating for and with lesbian, bisexual, and queer women. WE Change is focused on equipping women with the tools to advocate and become activists for the creation of a world that recognizes and protects the rights of all people, regardless of nationality, socioeconomic status, abilities, race, gender, or sexuality. Visit WE Change online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; Twitter: @WEChangeJA; and IG: @wechangeja. 

• Denae Fairweather, Director of Publicity and President of the Board of Our Circle, based in Belize. Our Circle ​advances legal and lived equality for LGBT-formed family units, and for those who wish to form them, through building community, changing hearts and minds, and driving policy reform. Visit Our Circle online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; and Twitter: @ourcirclebze. 

Carla led this conversation with Sarah-Ann, Shantae, and Denae in March 2022. We sealed this episode with audio from one of Colin Robinson’s final interview in this plane: Sex & Gender Justice in Trinidad and Tobago with Colin Robinson, Interview with Abby Charles, CaribNationTV. 

I hope you connect with these texts and enjoy the episode even further! Sincerely, 

Jacks.

4: The Kids May (Not) Be Okay

Hello dear audience! This is Jacqui, writer and researcher of “Under the Sycamore Tree.” Here are our show notes for our Episode 4: “The Kids May (Not) Be Okay.” 

Possible triggers in this episode include suicidal ideation, child abuse, child sexual abuse, intimate partner violence, HIV+/AIDS, and teenage pregnancies. The organizers and organizations featured in this episode are:

• Dr. Hazel da Breo, Founder and Executive Director of Sweet Water Foundation Research and Treatment Institute (Grenada. Sweet Water Foundation: Research and Treatment Institute is the only organization in the Caribbean which is focused upon research and treatment planning for women, girls, trans people, and other marginalized groups who have suffered from sexual violence from the time of early childhood. Founded in 2008, the organization conducts research, publishes findings, designs and implements trainings (thus building individual, community and institutional capacity), and provides specific psychotherapeutic care for both victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse. Visit Sweetwater Foundation online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; Twitter @SweetWaterIntl; and IG @MySistersKeeper_SWF / @UnderFive_SWF. 

• Chelsea Foster, Founder and Executive Director of Girls of a Feather (St. Lucia). Girls of a Feather is an organization founded in 2014 to provide educational opportunities and mentorship to adolescent girls between the ages of 10 and 18 in Saint Lucia. It was established in response to a recognition of the lack of opportunities for young girls to receive mentorship from older female professionals and an interest in raising awareness and advocating for the rights of adolescent girls. The organization focuses on five main pillars, which include education, leadership, relationship building, self-esteem and health. Their focus is to tackle social issues such as gender-based violence and sexual and reproductive health. Visit Girls of a Feather online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; Twitter @SLUFeathers; IG: @girlsofafeatherslu; and LinkedIn. 

• Joy Crawford, Co-Founder and Director of Programmes and Training, for Eve for Life (Jamaica). EVE for Life is an organization founded in 2008 that provides support to adolescent girls and young women who are survivors of physical and sexual abuse; and to women and children living with or affected by HIV and AIDS. The organization’s work is grounded on extensive research which informs their advocacy and service delivery to address the needs of their beneficiaries. Their mission is to improve the sexual and reproductive health and rights and quality of life of young women and girls exposed to HIV and sexual and gender-based violence. Visit Eve for Life online via their Website; their Equality Fund webpage; their Facebook page; Twitter: @EveforLife; and IG: @eveforlife_jamaica. 

Our Producer, Dave-Ann, interviewed Dr. da Breo, Chelsea, and Joy in late 2021. We sealed this episode with audio from one of Colin Robinson’s final interview in this plane: Sex & Gender Justice in Trinidad and Tobago with Colin Robinson, Interview with Abby Charles, CaribNationTV. 

I hope you connect with these texts and enjoy the episode even further! Sincerely, 

Jacks.

3: Families Live Here

Hello dear audience! This is Jacqui, writer and researcher of “Under the Sycamore Tree.” Here are our show notes for our Episode 3: “Families Live Here.” 

Possible triggers in this episode include intimate partner violence, HIV+ / AIDS, police violence, rape, unfair arrest, hiv+ / aids, trans-youth abuse. The organizer and organization featured in this episode is Charrice Talbert, Treasurer and Board President of PETAL. Promoting Empowerment Through Awareness for Lesbian and Bisexual Women (PETAL) is an organization founded in 2011, whose mission is to achieve social, economic, and gender justice for all women in Belize with a particular focus on lesbian and bisexual women. This is done through an advocacy and empowerment model, based on a human rights approach, for relevant engagement within and outside of Belize. PETAL can be found online via their website, their Equality Fund webpage, and their Facebook page.

Our Producer, Dave-Ann, first interviewed Charrice and Stephanie in late 2021, and Carla’s conversation with Charrice happened in March 2022. 

I hope you connect with these texts and enjoy the episode even further! Sincerely, 

Jacks.

Transcript

EPISODE OPENER

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;06, Charrice Talbert: I remember another activist saying this, that lesbians have it easier than trans, right? Lesbians have it easier than men. And I say as long as you're a marginalized or you’re a vulnerable people, there is no more or less than; you’re all in that box which is that you are treated different.

[Act 1] Introduction

00;00;26;07 - 00;01;01;09  [SCRIPT] Carla MooreThis episode is a Sankofa circle within the Sankofa link of this podcast series. Join us in this concentric formation, as I, alongside Charrice Talbert of PETAL, guide us through the life cycle of the families in our movement - queer families, specifically. Welcome to the Under the Sycamore Tree podcast. This episode, “Families Live Here,” features a conversation I had with Charrice in 2022. 

00;01;01;11 - 00;01;28;11, Carla: PETAL, Charrice’s organization, stands for Promoting Empowerment Through Awareness for Lesbian and Bisexual womxn. They are based in Belize City and they are Belize’s first! LBQ organization. Their mission is to foster social, economic, and gender justice for womxn - especially lesbian and bisexual womxn. Charrice was the founding Treasurer for PETAL, and is now the President of PETAL’s board of directors. 

Trigger warning

00;01;28;14 - 00;02;04;27, Carla: We'll be discussing topics that some listeners may find triggering, including abortion, domestic violence, HIV AIDS, sexual reproductive health, mental health and class. We understand that these topics can be difficult to hear about, and we want to remind our listeners that it's okay to take a break. 

Carla’s Welcome!

Carla: Wi deh ya pon di veranda, you deh ya pon di veranda, open yuh heart and yuh mind. Cock up yuh, and make wi have ah good time. 

[Act 2] Defining Family 

[SCRIPT] Carla: So, mek wi start at the beginning beginning… 

00;02;04;29 - 00;02;30;08, Carla: How do you even define family? And how do queer families come to be? What might be taken for granted in what we assume a family can be, and what might this foreclose for our lives? 

[CONVERSATION] Carla: So the episode is…is built up around a discussion of queer families. And you know, the first thing that I'm actually going to ask is what is your definition of family?

00;02;30;08 - 00;02;54;05, Carla continues: because I think that we have so many definitions of family. And I think that ummm… queer folks do a lot of work to expand that, expand it beyond the way that people usually think of family. But then also some queer folks, how are queer folks fitting inside of that original definition?

00;02;54;07 - 00;02;59;12, Charrice: So for us family is, what, who ever is your support. 

00;02;59;15 - 00;03;12;05, Carla: So that… that leads me into the next question, which is, was this always your personal definition of family or did your definition of family shift over time?

00;03;12;07 - 00;03;38;17, Charrice: It shifted over time simply because, just as we all are, we were never exactly here where we are. There are some things that that were a part of what's already what we learned more well that we some bad habits too, and things like that. So it shifted over time because I (once) thought that your family had to be biological. 

00;03;38;24 - 00;03;39;09, Carla (speaking alongside Charrice…) Yes. Yes. 

00;03;39;12 - 00;04;20;10 Charrice Continues: Right. And when I think of family, it's most of the time [unintelligible] family, sibling, grandfather, grandmother, ahm, ahm first or second cousin, and that’s it, right? So, yes, it has shifted over time. Ahm. Since we normalizing what we normalize for so long, right? Ahm. But yes, it has shifted it all time. I never always thought that family was or could be extended, could be blended, could be anything other than. 

00;04;20;13 - 00;04;46;06,  [SCRIPT] Carla Do you hear what else is in Charrice answer? There is no right answer to this, no answer that should be policed, whether by straight folx, queer folx, or anybody else for that matter.

[Act 3] Interdependence 

[SCRIPT] Carla: This also extends to how Charrice came to learn about her own sexuality. Coming into this knowledge for Charrice also came with the knowledge of how her sexuality impacts her family. 

00;04;46;09 - 00;05;23;25, Carla: The reality of this impact, that impact exists and does happen, does not mean it is a negative impact, but a reflection of our interdependence; unearthing and composting the myth of the individual queer, separate, apart, and alone. 

[CONVERSATION] Carla, I'm glad that you, you said “denormalizing”, right, because I want us to go there. So your organization is about promoting empowerment and awareness for lesbian and bisexual womxn.

00;05;23;27 -  00;06;02;05, Carla continues: And unfortunately, when we think, not we, when some people think of LGBT people, when they think of lesbians and bisexual womxn, they don't put them in a family format. A lot of time queer people you're just imagined to be single, or that they're dating forever. [space] How do queer families form (unintelligible) how unnu queer person end up in a family? What is a queer family? How do queer families form?

00;06;02;07 - 00;06;53;17, Charrice: Over time, we realized that for  persons family and… and… and… how they come about is just whomever that person is comfortable with or most comfortable with that, they want to, if they already have children, share [space] that space with that person to be a part of their lives, not just them, but their children’s lives and looking at that on a long term base as well. Not just for the now, for the sex, for things like that; but I want you to be the other person. Not the man, not the father because they already maybe have a father or a deadbeat father or no  father ‘cause yah know, where are you? Because, you know, this is life. Lots of things happen. Some of them as well.. 

00;06;53;17 - 00;07;19;01 Charrice continues: it's formed out of relationships that kinda went bad. And so they just want to explore another part of their sexuality and… if, in fact, this is something that [space] they want. So. I kind of have a little bias against that because I'm kinda like… well, how can you just… tryyy? Try it? 

00;07;19;07 - 00;07;20;27, Carla (speaking alongside Charrice) Yeah…

00;07;20;29 - 00;07;39;25, Charrice continues: this is not like (unintelligible), or like rice and peas, or how can you just try it ya know? … It’s not a flavor…right. But I’ve come to the realiz(ation) that people, a lot of people I've engaged that they have never thought about being in a relationship with another woman.

00;07;39;25 - 00;07;41;24, Carla (speaking alongside Charrice) Yeah.

00;07;41;26 - 00;08;21;18, Charrice continues: Even myself in my younger self, in my younger self, I always looked at womxn in a different way, even though I have children – ahm my son is 22, he’s going to be 23 years old, and my daughter turn 19 (unintelligible) – and it’s not to say, to say really, really  and truly that I was pressured to have a boyfriend, I was pressured into… I noticed from an early age that [space] I found womxn very (unintelligible) not in terms of just looking at them and that they're pretty, in terms of I’m thinking things …

00;08;21;18 - 00;08;46;00, Charrice continues: …and I'm feeling things when I look at… but I also have this feeling with men! Carla: right? Charrice: y’a know? And so, when, now, over time we’ve learned, as well as some needs assessment, some of our sessions that we’ve had with womxn, you will learn that, to some, like, you don’t nearly see that people can try it and like it…

00;08;46;02 - 00;09;32;09, [SCRIPT] Carla: Living through interdependence allows Charrice to strengthen her family, and by extension, our concept of queer families more generally. This includes being accountable to children. 

Carla: Focusing on queer families refracts our focus. Taking queer families seriously means that we need to more holistically understand how oppressions - regular oppressions which we think we know, move. This takes us back to Queer families deepening our fluency with social dynamics - equipping us with spatial, concentric, networked understandings of the reality of  the interdependent lives we live.  

Colin’s Plane

00;09;32;11 - 00;09;44;14 [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] Colin Robinson That's the amazing lesson that, you know, young people in Egypt and elsewhere in the world are beginning to take this different vision, a vision of how we change governance.

00;09;44;16 - 00;09;48;02, Colin continues: We've even seen it in places like Jamaica and in Guyana.

00;09;48;04 - 00;09;59;23, Colin continues: The young people who across sexual orientations have a vision of nationhood and of inclusion that surpasses the vision ahm, of their their parents and grandparents.

00;09;59;25 - 00;10;09;21, [CONVERSATION] Carla: I love that you bring that up, because, as a woman, once you have a child, anything you doing after that, the child comin’ whitchu. 

00;10;10;13 - 00;10;23;24 Carla continues: If never had the the opportunity to try a relationship with another woman before, then di pikney comin’ whitchu to try the relationship with the other woman and yeah, so people might like it…

00;10;23;26 - 00;10;46;16, Charrice: My partner and I have been together since my daughter was three months old. And so, and she's more masculine presenting. And when she was growing up, when she said “dad” it was to that person because, for her looking at that person, it looks different from mommy, so, ya’ know, it’s a dad. And then people say, “you know what, who’s your dad?” 

00;10;46;16 - 00;11;08;05, Charrice continues: and then she’s say the name And they’re like, that’s not your dad, that’s another woman. And she said… so I had to explain to her that well, you can have two mommies. You can have twice all the love you get from Mommy. Imagine everything you can get from Mommy, you can get it times two. You have it better than these people cause you get it…

00;11;08;07 - 00;11;15;24, Charrice continues: …times two. Carla: Yes. Charrice continues: But how do you how do you begin to explain this to a six year old? …

00;11;15;26 - 00;11;50;11, Carla continues: And that this of coming out and becoming visible and how even though it's a public secret everybody know, uttering that … for yourself, takes on a different meaning it… it… ya know… it… which, inside of a family setting, a parent coming out is kind of the family coming out, in a way. There is a way that the parent publicly acknowledging that they are queer. … 

00;11;50;13 - 00;12;08;19, Carla continues: …do you find that that has an impact on the family? Do you find that, for families where the parents are… not visible, the experience is different for a family where one or both members of that that parents unit are open about being queer.

00;12;08;22 - 00;12;39;15, Charrice: It’s a bit of both. Because if you haven’t shared this with your children or your child… then that child is more prone to a lot bullying, bad things hap-, occurring, because they can’t defend it, they can’t speak to it because they don't… And maybe some of what is being said, because we know that children can be very hurtful and cruel too with what they would say… Carla: absolutely…

00;12;39;18 - 00;13;06;04, Charrice continues …And so we've found that it's a (unintelligible) because some of the children do suffer more in terms of like the bullying, its just like a whole level of bullying that occurs now. When we were younger, you go home and you say someone bullying you and your parents would say “don’t come back here crying” because they don; Very well, mind you said, somebody bully Europeans, they don't come back here praying because they don't teach you to be a softie right? Carla:  Right.. Charrice: to stand up and speak for yourselves and things like that … 

00;13;06;04 - 00;13;30;22, Charrice continues: but children now have been, some of them have been taught a bit differently, and you can not defend what you don’t know. Children will always be fearful of the parents, and they won't see certain things, even if that child kind of has figured that this is what is occurring. You won’t stand up to your mother and say, “why you don’t just say that (unintelligible) a lady,” or “why you nah just say that you did just sleep with (unintelligible)?” you won’t do that, right? so…

00;13;30;24 - 00;14;10;12, Charrice continues: …it it its (unintelligible) it is a bit of both where, where it concern them. And ahm, it kinda is sad and frustrating because we cannot move forward in having things be better if we ourselves don't want to get in that enough uncomfortable seat at some point. You know, if you've chosen that this is how you want to leave, then (space) then you want to live this way.

00;14;10;17 - 00;14;38;20, Charrice continues: …And so you've chosen that, then I know it's going to take time and and you will do certain things, but you (space) can’t not, not address it at some point. And and then you're living unfair to your child that has to constantly go through the bullying, the ridicule in spaces because you you are uncomfortable.

00;14;38;23 - 00;15;11;18, Carla: There is also the challenge is that you face that no have nothing fi do with being a part of a queer family. So I’m thinking now for you, your organization focuses on lesbian and bisexual womxn. So I want to ask you, in terms of employment equality in Belize, a lot of times, we find that households that are headed by two womxn are more likely to experience poverty because of employment inequality.

00;15;11;20 - 00;15;19;25, Carla continues: Right. And I wanted to find out if is that is something that you're experiencing in your context, that a two woman household … 

00;15;19;28 - 00;15;57;05, Carla continues: … Will… ha- Charrice: be deprived of a lot of resources. Yes. Yes, it is. Because… a simple thing is that a lot of the woman-led households, unfortunately, it's persons that are making minimum wage. Carla: Yeah. Charrice: And so two people making minimum wage, having four or five children with no father supporting you know, all these bills to pay, school, you know, keeping food on the table, the roof over the head ….   

00;15;57;05 - 00;16;39;25, Charrice … It just you know, as as black people, Caribbean people, we say “wi rob Peter fi pay Paul” Carla: YES… Charrice: you know you don't have that luxury of just spending it. I need to put some towards the next bill that's going to be due next week and things like that and then the child comes home and says ma ya know teacher seh wi have to bring dis or if I not paying the school fees I can not tek the test, you know? So yes, two womxn households they do the minimum wage and minimum wage in Belize is $3.33 a min- an hour, so that's like less than no that's U.S. ….

00;16;39;27 - 00;16;41;16, Charrice continues: … U.S. You it's $1 dolla fifty cents an hour 00;16;41;22 - 00;16;43;21, Carla (alongside): yes

00;16;43;24 - 00;17;09;16 Charrice continues: …and we’re not talking about lavish, we’re talking about eating chicken foot and rice or corned beef and rice, you know, or plantain and rice. Yes. And and and you are not able to do that. And then a lot of persons don't own their own home and things like that. 

[Act 4] PETAL as Organizers

00;17;09;19 - 00;17;42;15, [SCRIPT] Carla: It was important for this holistic approach to inform even the founding of PETAL. And it also governed PETAL’s approach to establishing a safe space. 

[CONVERSATION] Carla: one of the the moments in queer life that’s a rough moment is if somebody has a hospital and it gets to the point where family only… family only can go to the room. 

00;17;42;18 - 00;17;48;27, Carla continues: In Belize … is it (unintelligble)... they can’t go in (Carla reacting to Charrice shaking her head. 

00;17;48;29 - 00;18;01;15, Charrice: Cause you're not recognized, the … the … the… the … legislation (unintelligible) understands your spouse to be man or woman, which is husband or wife.

00;18;01;17 - 00;18;09;14, Carla: And that means that things like insurance you can’s (unintelligible).

00;18;09;16 - 00;18;52;06, Charrice: you still can’t. So we've been we've been speaking to the minister both previous and current where it concerns the language, because we've found that the biggest problem is the language. If the language would say person, and not specifically say man woman then you wouldn't have these issues. Because us remember was doing a forum around Social Security and the same thing same sex homes not being able or not only same sex, but homes that are not considered the traditional mom and dad homes. Carla: Yes.

00;18;52;06 - 00;19;26;01, Charrice: You are not allotted or afforded the benefits of that person, even if that person were to leave on the line that says beneficiary, “I want Carla, if Carla Moore is not the husband or the wife, you won't get that because that comes from that legislation, which defines spouse as being husband or a wife.

00;19;26;04 - 00;19;34;08, Carla: …and wife. And husband and wife is of course is determined by biological sex as well on top of everything else. 

00;19;34;08 - 00;19;52;03, Charrice: Exactly. So you're not able to anything because what they say is it's not their fault because they’re going with what the law says and the definition says that. So until the definition changes and says “person” ….

00;19;52;06 - 00;20;02;27, Carla: Then they are supported by the law to continue enacting the law in a way that is exclusive. Charrice agreeing. [light birdsong] 

00;20;02;29 - 00;20;27;14, Charrice: Uhm, I remember another activist saying this, that lesbians have it easier than trans. Carla (alongside): right? Charrice continues: Lesbians have easier than gay men. And I say as long as you're a marginalized or you're a vulnerable people, there is no more or less, you're all in that box, which is that you are treated different. Carla: Yes.

00;20;27;21 - 00;21;02;16, Charrice: And… we found that a lot of womxn, (space) even within,  some within our membership, what we found is a lot of them were… tend to be more bisexual. Carla: Mm Hm. Charrice continues: I recall us having a session and there was a.. a… person that was in it and she said to us, why is the space for lesbians and bisexuals? And I said, What's the issue with that?

00;21;02;16 - 00;21;11;19, Charrice continues: And she said, because she believes that the lesbians should have their own space and bisexuals should have their own space. Carla: Right?

00;21;11;20 - 00;21;59;07, Charrice: So I wanted to get an understanding around why does she think that it requires two different spacing? Carla: Right. Charrice: And so she went on to say, well, you know, bisexuals aren’t really lesbians because, you know, they from time to time engage in intimate affair with men and so they are less  Carla: Yes. Charrice continues: lesbian like. Carla: Right. Charrice continues: And so we realized at that point that there is all about stigmatization, discrimination about right with the core community we are serving and how do we intend to address this? We can’t just openly go at it and and and say you know  “do you believe we should do this or do you believe that we should do that?” We had to … 

00;21;59;07 - 00;22;24;29, Charrice continues: … reevaluate because one of the things that we did before we, the organization went countrywide, and engaged womxn to find out if it made sense to even form an organization for womxn. Because we didn't just want to go off what we were thinking that, well there's none, so we should do something. We wanted for them to tell us that, “yes, we want you to do that.” …

00;22;24;29 - 00;22;44;23, Charrice continues: … and these are the types of things they want us to to deal with. One is the psychosocial support that they can access and have no charge to them. And each person get a minimum of six sessions. Carla: Oh. Wow….

00;22;44;23 - 00;23;13;05, Charrice: Unless the therapist knows that they need more. So that's kind of like the biggest support that we're able to provide them with. Besides that it's just the spaces that we create for them, those spaces for them to be themself, the best you. We pride ourselves with our spaces why we are very picky and choose-y with the con- (unintelligible).

00;23;13;08 - 00;23;46;18, Charrice continues: (unintelligible) … this is not that. When we moved into this location that we have we don't call it our office, it’s called PETAL’s house. When you come in it’s actually like a house. Because we want when you come in here that you feel like you’re at home, that you're comfortable enough that you sit there for the minutes before I speak that, you know, you're just comfortable. …

00;23;46;18 - 00;24;03;15, Charrice continues: … You don't even realize that you are sitting there five because it's almost like you're not stressed out again because you're comfortable within this and you know that what you share with us, you would never hear it from somewhere else. Carla: Yeah.

00;24;03;15 - 00;24;30;00, Charrice: So we pride ourselves with that. And people will tell you that that they cannot say, even when they come into our spaces we engage every single person. It's not the Carla and I … (unintelligible) … just talking …(unintelligible)... and like that. No. We engage every single person so that a person does not feel uncomfortable. It may be your first time engaging this space that we're providing.

00;24;30;02 - 00;25;06;08, Charrice continues: And so you don't know about us, you don't know us. You only know what you heard. Maybe we put up a flier and you saw something that piqued your interest. And so we want when you come into that space, you always have that same impression that we give you when we engage. (space) Carla: yeah. Yeah…. Charrice continues: as I said earlier, when we went around asking should we start an organization or not, there were a lot of concerns that came out of persons, they, some persons were like, “are you going to be another one of so-and-so that just came and and did a survey …

00;25;06;08 - 00;25;49;03, Charrice continues: … And then that’s all we heard from you and then ehm, any time you want anything you come around and then we don’t hear anything and we don’t get invited to anything, we don’t get invited to anything and we can not reach you. And we did not want that. You know, because, when you when you're engaging people you don't know where they are at that point in their lives, you know, and you don't want to be like the straw that broke the camel's back. Carla: Yeah. Charrice continues: We don't ever want to find ourselves in that position. So when we engage persons, you know, if we're not able to provide the support, we go to the extent of finding out where we can access the support that they need.

00;25;49;05 - 00;26;18;12, Carla: Organizations who are doing the work in the region carry the additional responsibility to not… (space, considering…) hurt and disappoint people in the same way that they have been hurt and disappointed in the past. And I think for the queer community, that's one of the things that people carry. You know, you come in with survey, you coming to ask 

00;26;18;12 - 00;27;14;28, Carla continues: … for mi opinion,  you coming to make promise … And at the end of the day I am in the same position before you take (space) forty minutes of my time – Charrice interjects: Like a regulah politician. Carla: Like a regulah politician! You know! That responsibility to your community to understand that when you come and you ask them a question, there has to be an action behind the question or they will begin to doubt you as well. You know? and that is going to affect your organization. (space, light birdsong) 

00;27;15;00 - 00;28;06;25, (space) Carla continues: In our context, we've had some successes, you know. Belize is one of those places where we've had some successes in terms of, ahm, … legal occurrences. But still more work that needs to be done to ensure that families are better included. And when we think about the life span of a family, we're thinking about births as in a new child entering that family. And then we're thinking about death inside of that family, you know, leaving a partner behind. What are some of the things that queer families are having to navigate in terms of… that that part there, the start the birth, a new child entering the family. How can we ensure that parents are represented, able to, you know, like, care for them pickney and take their child as their own? And then also after that, death, when the family loses someone.

00;28;06;27 - 00;29;00;21, Charrice: Being in these same sex unions and having children involved, whether they came into or you want to have a child, there is nothing in place to secure the life, the in between, the death. In terms of two womxn wanting to conceive a child, would have to maybe go through some type of process with a male, which requires some paperwork being drawn where that male signs over all his duties, responsibilities, everything to the person, … or even if its two males, you know, the other biologic person has to sign over allll rights to that child. Carla: yeah. … 

00;29;00;24 - 00;29;30;27, Charrice continues: … and then there is (unintelligible) also not just about rights. It's that both of you won’t be seen as the parent legally either. You don’t have two mothers or two fathers on any birth certificate or anything like that. No. It will… I’m not sure how it happens on the islands. Here, when you both register a child, if the father accompanies you, then you get the father's last name.

00;29;30;29 - 00;30;02;19, Charrice continues: If not, you only get the mother's last name. Right? Yeah. So… ahm, take for example myself. Talbert is not my father’s, that’s my mother’s name Right. So, if only the mother goes to register the child, only the mother's name would go there there. Right. So ahm, let's just say two mothers maybe my child is Talbert and the next person's last name, but those like me….

00;30;02;21 - 00;30;36;04, Charrice continues: You understand? Right? It’s, it's not recognized in the same way as having that surname of the father, right? In terms of benefits you won't be recognized that you have a, a, a husband or you have a wife, same sex. And so you go on and only will receive these things or the other one will receive, not as well, because you both have a child, or the child is sick and so you can’t go …

00;30;36;04 - 00;31;02;10, Charrice continues: get time off. No, those things don't exist. Should one pass away as well, if there was not a will drafted up that says that “I want to meet to Carla Moore x, y, z…” it (won’t) happen because the law does not does not cover ahm, same sex unions and… anything that that comes around (same?) sex. Carla: yeah… right. 

00;31;02;11 - 00;31;28;19, Charrice continues: Right. There is no legislation to address that and so it becomes kinda difficult because we do have some womxn who do want to have children. Biological,  They don't want to adopt. They want to have children, but you’re… concerned because you’re not afforded all the amenities as heterosexual couples do.

00;31;28;21 - 00;31;56;00, Charrice continues: So there there there isn’t really anything other than within same sex relationships. My partner and I have been together for eighteen years and so my daughter knows only that person. But, ahm, she's an adult now because she's 18 and though she can legally replace (unintelligible) her should she choose. But her being a younger child., …

00;31;56;02 - 00;32;28;28, Charrice continues: …there wasn't anything that I would have been able to receive for her, or for person now. There isn’t anything you can receive from (glitch) there is, for example, this thing that when you give birth, ahm, this paper that they give you at the the hospital and it says that you gave birth to one live boy, seven pounds, whatever, and that paper you take to the Social Security and there’s, ahm, I think 300 dollars paid out, well, for giving life. Carla: mmm hmmmm… Charrice continues: right?

00;32;29;05 - 00;33;12;03, Charrice continues: And the mother gets that. And if the mother is not working but the father is the pa gets that. So… in the case of two mothers, none of them would get that if if it's the… other person who is working who is not the biological like Carla (alongside): biological mother… Charrice continues: you know, it’s not going to extend like that. Carla: (sigh…) Lord tek di case and gimme di pillow… 

[SCRIPT] Carla: we wish all you queer families out there peace and strength and guidance, particularly when you find yourself dealing with institutions. [light birdsong] 

00;33;12;05 - 00;33;42;20, [CONVERSATION continues] Charrice: We've had where since COVID, we've done three needs assessments Carla: yeah Charrice continues: with our members to find out where they are. And they are still not where they need to be because, when COVID came, some persons were out of work, like, a lot of them worked in tourism, so working, doing wait staff and things like that. Ahm. And when that two yea-…  when that time came, you know, everything was… Carla: Yup. Charrice continues: closed. …  Carla: Yup.

00;33;42;22 - 00;33;56;04, Charrice: … and they had no support. So you are in the hole you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole, how do you ever get out of the hole when what you’re getting, you’re working like, on call. Carla: Yeah. Yeah.

00;33;56;04 - 00;34;26;28, Charrice: working Friday and Saturday and that’s all the money that you're making. And the bills just keep piling piling piling. So we've done three needs assessment, which makes us know that they’re still not where they need to be. Ahm, they’re not, some of them are still not totally unemployed, but it's as good as unemployed because being on call and not being called other than one or two days for the week can't pay the bills. [light birdsong] 

[Act 5] Stephanie, PETAL Client

00;34;27;00 - 00;34;49;20, [SCRIPT, light atmospheric music] Carla: We also had the pleasure of speaking with one of PETAL’s clients, Stephanie. Here she is speaking to our Producer, Dave-Ann Moses, about her experiences as a queer womxn in Belize, and how PETAL’s specific approach to family informs how they tailor support for their clients and their community. [light atmospheric music continues]

00;34;49;23 - 00;35;26;02, [INTERVIEW, 2021; light atmospheric music continues] Stephanie: …getting a lawyer… for me, so that's a big help for me because I never had the money to… to, ahm, get a lawyer. I would have to maybe just go and maybe just face face face things all by myself, right? And I, I was home one day too…. and she's my friend and she's the one that, ahm, like, introduced me to… to PETAL … 

00;35;26;03 - 00;37;17;00, Stephanie continues: … and tell me things that they could ahm, help me with and things like that. So it's been a big deal for me, you know, having that kind of help. And like how I can build stuff and stuff like that. I try to help them, building stuff for them, you know? And stuff like that. So I feel happy that I could be a part of this, ahm, organization, right? They help me, I help them. (chuckle…) They give me that support that I need (unintelligible) … so I get really, ahm, you know, say (unintelligible)... whenever, sometimes I wouldn't expect that, ahm, I would really like, go through this thing if it wasn't for them in a one sense right. But it happens … so I can't (blame?) a lot. 

Dave-Ann (Podcast Producer, Queerly Stated): I, I'm interested to hear about how do you think the attitudes towards ahm, queer womxn, lesbian and bisexual womxn, have changed over the years in Belize? Stephanie: When I was like, when I first had my first girlfriend, I was … scared because all of my friends, they had boyfriends, right?

00;37;17;03 - 00;39;11;07, Stephanie continues: … And I didn't want them to know… that. So I been hiding that for a while. You know… (?) And … you know, I see men will, would fight with same sex men because they are gay and stuff like that. But now I'm not seeing that too much. From… but still you have men that will allow the guys that is gay to be around with them, right? It's ahm, it’s changing because I guess ahm they see that we're we're only still the same people just that we have different ahm, ahm, different different, different ahm, different… what’s the word to use? Different, ahm, choices… We we we want to make our own choices of who we want to be with so… They shouldn't ahm, have problem with that, cause we don’t have problem with them, right? So, hey… we just have to keep, keep  the good fight (chuckles…). 

Stephanie continues: Me personally didn't go through too much … ahm, hardship with my… ahm, gayness right? So. But you have people that struggles with it. But after they maybe go and be around the right type of people which is like them (?), (glitch, unintelligible) they shouldn't have no problem. But ahm, ‘cause one time you had people that had problems with that type of thing, … 

00;39;11;07 - 00;40;08;01, Stephanie continues: …right? So, ahm, I… I would say I would just  want them to be protected at all times, so that, ahm, nobody hurt them for what they, ahmm, want to do with their sex life. 

Sealing this Episode

[SCRIPT] Carla: The life cycle of queer families, from coming out, to birth, death, rebirth, and regeneration. We connect this Sankofa chain back to the beginning, to end this episode. How do you define family? And who is family… to you? Chosen or not? We hope you sit in this somatic alchemy, sparked by considering queer families in our region; meditating on interdependence. 

[CREDITS] 00;40;08;03 - 00;40;41;28, Carla: This episode was produced by a Rebel Women Lit and Queerly Stated with support from Astrea Lesbian Foundation for Justice, Equality Fund, and Global Affairs Canada. Research and writing by Jacqui Brown, Script Editing and Project Management by Dave-Ann Moses, Editing and Sound Design by Jherane Patmore and Safiyah Chiniere, and Outreach by Ashley Dalley. Remember to head on over to the show notes to find the details of the organizers featured in our episode and Rebelwomenlit.com for additional references. 00;40;42;00 - 00;40;52;01, Carla: Thank you so much for joining me. Your host, Carla Moore, Under the Sycamore Tree … 

2: Setting Precedent: Positive Rights

Hello dear audience! This is Jacqui, writer and researcher of “Under the Sycamore Tree.” Here are our show notes for our Episode 2: “Setting Precedent: Positive Rights?” 

Possible triggers in this episode include transphobia, police brutality, rape, unfair arrest, trans-youth abuse, misgendering, and possible deadnaming. The organization and organizer featured is Candacy McEwan, Founder and Executive Director of Guyana Trans United. Founded in 2012, Guyana Trans United is an organization that aims to improve the quality of life for the trans-Guyanese community and to ensure that their rights are recognized in all domains through human rights advocacy, promoting respect and acceptance within the larger society, and empowering transgender individuals through creating and sustaining an environment free from all violence, prejudice, discrimination, and other negative and adverse conduct. 

The precedent-setting Caribbean Court of Justice case that frames this episode is McEwan, et. al. vs. The Attorney General of Guyana (2018). You can find a video of Judge Saunders’ judgment on the Caribbean Court of Justice’s YouTube channel, and the written judgment here. Our context on the UK Privy Council comes from Radio 90 FM (Jamaica), and according to the journal, International Legal Matters, “the savings clause of the Constitution of Guyana is to be found at Article 152; it states that nothing contained in or done under the authority of any pre-independence written law shall be held in contravention of the human rights protected by the Constitution.” Visit Guyana Trans United online via their Equality Fund webpage, their Twitter @GuyanaTrans, and their Facebook page.

Our Producer, Dave-Ann, first interviewed Candacy in late 2021, and Carla’s conversation with Candacy happened in March 2022. 

I hope you connect with these texts and enjoy the episode even further! Sincerely, 

Jacks.

Transcript

EPISODE OPENER

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;29;05, Candacy McEwan (Guyana Trans United, Guyana): But in 2009, as I always reflect it as a magical, night, it was seven of us picked up on that particular night. And when we been picked up and we went into the lock up, they expect us to offer them a bribe in terms of maybe paying the police station, that we would normally do, but we said, no, it’s seven of us, and we gonna go through with it.

Introducing this Episode

00;00;29;07 - 00;01;18;21, Carla: Another privilege of this podcast is to revel in the court precedent set by grantee partner, Guyana Trans United. Perhaps there are not enough opportunities for the members of Guyana Trans United to be recognized as elders and forerunners of Caribbean queer feminist and trans organizing. Did you know that they're the first trans-led organization in the English speaking Caribbean? We didn't.

Carla continues: We also didn't know that they were central to the Caribbean Courts of Justice case, which overturned colonial era, so-called cross-dressing laws, which were often used to criminalize nonbinary and trans persons. Lekka tell you something. I can’t wait for you to hear this conversation with Candacy. co-founder and executive director of Guyana Trans United.

Trigger Warning

00;01;18;23 - 00;02;15;09, Carla: We’ll be discussing topics that some listeners may find triggering including; transphobia, police brutality, rape, unfair arrest, and trans youth abuse. During the episode, we will be discussing a legal case in which a trans person's dead name is used by the judge. We understand that this can be hurtful and disrespectful to the trans community, and we want to acknowledge that we do not condone the use of dead names or misgendering.

Carla continues: But we thought it was important for us to include recordings of this landmark case. We understand that these topics can be difficult to hear about, and we want to remind our listeners that it's okay to take a break if you need to.

Carla’s Welcome!

Carla: You deh yah pon de verandah, we deh yah pon de verandah, open you heart and you mind, cock up you foot and mek we have a good time.

[Act 1] A Court Conversation

00;02;15;11 - 00;03;02;22, Candacy McEwan (Guyana Trans United, Guyana): So my name is Quincy McEwan a.k.a. Candacy, I'm the executive director and founder of Guyana Trans United. Guyana Trans United is a non-governmental organization, is the first transgender led organization to found in English speaking Caribbean. However, Guyana Trans United were set up in terms to advocate for transgender rights, In terms of we might have been a part of a lot of LGBT organizations and not our needs has never been advanced in those human rights group that we maybe been a part of. In terms of HIV and AIDS was very rampant and still would have been a part of our community. And those are some of the need that we try to address through the Guyana Trans United.

00;03;02;25 - 00;04;46;04, Carla: Did you hear what Candacy just said there? Trans folks had been organizing within the queer movement from TIME, but these cis gender led queer groups did not or could not fight fully for trans rights. So nearly 15 years ago, Candacy and our fellow organizers founded Guyana Trans United so they could lead a feminist and queer justice organizing from the front. This leadership includes, of course, their precedent setting court case. So let us receive Candacy's testimony on the Guyana Trans United Case:  McEwan et al, versus the Attorney General of Guyana. 

 Carla continues: But we'll need to stick a pin here and give you what an American podcast might call an explanatory comma. So what is the Caribbean Court of Justice? What is its relationship to the UK Private Council? Remember the court case Day et al, which we briefly discussed in episode zero?

[ARCHIVAL AUDIO] “Privy council rules against same sex marriage in Cayman Islands,” Nationwide News FM: “A recent ruling by the Privy Council in relation to same sex marriages in the Cayman Islands has dealt a blow to lobby groups across the region that want to have the buggery law struck down.” 

Carla: Well, why was it that the UK Privy Council was the highest judicial authority for that case? But the Caribbean Court of Justice was the highest judicial authority? But the Guyana Trans United case. Here is a useful explainer from Jamaica's nationwide FM Radio on the Judicial Committee on the UK Privy Council.

00;04;46;07 - 00;05;03;12, [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] Nationwide News FM, continued: “Common law is the set of rules and precedents that guides the constitutions of several Commonwealth countries. That means a court ruling in one country can set legal precedents in another country. That's the case with the ruling of the Privy Council in the case brought by Cayman's government.”

00;05;03;14 - 00;05;24;05, Carla: And now the Caribbean Court of Justice is the highest judicial authority for those countries that have opted to leave the UK Privy Council. Remember, Ambassador David Commissiong from Barbados, who we heard from in episode zero? He noted, for example, that Barbados made this transition over a decade ago.

00;05;24;08 - 00;06;01;01, [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] Democracy now interview with David Commissiong: It really should have happened on the 30th of November 1966, when Barbados became an independent country. But back then, for whatever reasons, and you know, there are many reasons we can speculate about, we made two compromises on our constitutional sovereignty and independence. We corrected one compromise in 2005 when we broke our legal system away from the British Privy Council and installed our Caribbean Court of Justice as our highest national court.

[Act 2] Processing this Court Conversation: Adding our Voices

00;06;01;03 - 00;06;59;03, Carla: Here is how their case began, as narrated by Candacy alongside Justice Saunders. Some of you might find this quite dry. Some air might be super into hearing legal judgments. Either way, please listen carefully and from your center, as this is what the adjudication of our rights often sounds like. Remote, dry, plodding, inaccessible, sometimes harmless, sometimes intriguing, and sometimes useful.

Carla: In this instance, the honorable Mr. Justice A. Saunders delivers what seems to us a truly sturdy, sensible and comprehensive judgment. Head over to our show notes where we link to the full judgment. We encourage you to listen to the Court's judgment in its entirety.

00;06;59;06 - 00;09;02;08, [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] GYCV2017/015 - The honorable Mr. Justice A. Saunders in Quincy Mc Ewan, Seon Clarke & Others v The Attorney General of Guyana: In February 2009, they were arrested, detained, charged, convicted and punished for cross-dressing in public. McEwan and Clarke were arrested while awaiting transportation in Georgetown. McEwan is dressed in a pink shirt and a pair of tights, along with a black hair piece. Clarke was wearing slippers, a jersey and a skirt. They were transported to the Brickenham police station where they were photographed and instructed to undress and then placed in a lock up.

Justice Saunders continues: A few hours later, Fraser and Persaud were also arrested and taken to the same police station. At the time they were dressed in skirts and each wore a red and black wig. While in custody, Fraser made several requests of the police. He demanded that the police take a statement from him. He sought legal counsel and requested medical attention for injuries sustained during an earlier altercation.He also asked for a telephone call. None of his requests were granted. Instead, he and Persaud were put in a cell where they met McEwan and Clarke. That's where all four of them spent the weekend. Neither at the time of arrest nor any other time during the weekend did they receive any explanation as to why they had been arrested and detained.

Justice Saunders continues: It was only when they were taken to the Georgetown Magistrate's Court on Monday, ninth February, they learned for the first time that they had been charged with the offenses of loitering and with the offense in the impugned law. The impugned section prohibits every person who quote being a man in any public way or public place for any improper purpose appears in a female attire or being a woman in any public place for any improper purpose appears in a male attire.

00;09;02;11 - 00;11;19;23, [INTERVIEW, 2021] Candacy: So the law that I was speaking about here is a law that from our colonial masters there’s a saving clause that it would cause a few laws within these laws, in terms of male dressed in a female attire, or a female dressed in the male attire. So one of the thing is that trans person at the time was being affected by the law.

Candidacy continues: So the police, once you're dressed in female attire and you go out, the police would come and harass you. So many times they would have picked up me or pick up other trans woman before 2009. And because they want to pick up one or two persons, sometimes you as a trans person, because you dressed in your female attire, you would be placed in a male lock up where a lot of male is there.

Candidacy continues: And you because you wanted safety you normally would go to them and offer them, sometimes you engage in sex work and you would say to them ‘ok, this is all the money that I have for the night, whatever is it, I am willing to give it for my safety’ because it was you alone. But in 2009, as I always reflect it as a magical, night, it was seven of us picked up on that particular night. And when we been picked up and we went into the lock up, they expect us to offer them a bribe in terms of maybe paying the police station, that we would normally do, but we said, no, it’s seven of us, and we gonna go through with it.

Candidacy continues: However, they have a law of stipulate that you cannot hold a person beyond seventy-two hours. Some of us was hold beyond the 72 hours. The reason why they still feel that we would’ve come to them in arms to pay or ask the police station to make us free. We said, let us challenge it and go before the court. However, when we went before the court, the magistrate at the particular time that was dealing didn't act in our favor. She said ‘ stop embarrassing us, in terms that oh you're a male dressed in female attire. Why would you want to dress in male-female clothes, why don’t you give your life to Christ?’ 

Candidacy continues: And we realized that the particular time that police them was in the courtroom and the police was the prosecutor in the courtroom.

00;11;19;26 - 00;11;42;06, [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] The Honorable Justice A. Saunders in Quincy Mc Ewan, et. al v. The Attorney General of Guyana: They all pleaded guilty to the cross-dressing charge. And McEwan, Clarke and Persaud were fined $7,500, while Fraser was fined $19,500. Upon imposing the sentence, the presiding magistrate told them they were confused about their sexuality and that they were men, not women.

00;11;42;08 - 00;15;53;28, Candacy: So we said, if we leave this with all of this what the magistrate said to us, it gonna give the police more right to come against us. Mind you, each one of us has to pay a fine. So we didn't charged for loitering which they attracted… said she trying to be lenient after insulting us. She said because of my leniency ‘ you’re supposed to be paying $17,500 fine for each one of the charge.

Candacy continues: But because of my leniency, you gonna pay $7500 for each one. Amounted us seven five I think in total, seven five on one was $10,000. So each one of us pay like $17,000. We been released on the fines. And then we said, we don't feel that we had enough justice from the magistrate. We feel our rights was even further violated, when she said ‘ok why you wanted to dress in female attire?’ we said ‘then this would give the police more power to come against us’

Candacy continues: So we came out at the time and we didn't have nobody was documenting human rights. One year after we learned about SASOD was doing human rights violations for LGBT. And then we reach out to them, they document our case the same year to be able to have [indiscernible] act on it pro-bono and there’s where Tracey Robinson and such take up the case.

Candacy continues: The first hearing to file at the high court, because we then had to go to the high court and we went from the high court in 2010 until 2013. We had, I like to say the first win, but it was very complicated in terms of chancellor at the time said,’ okay, if you're trans dressed in female attire to express your gender identity it’s not a problem but if you're going to do it for improper purpose’...at the time, we as trans persons could not interpret what the meaning of ‘improper purpose’ because many of us are engaged in sex work. And we realized that some clause around sex work in our country is also criminalized in terms of solicitation and persons who living off of the earning of sex work. And we said we couldn't get a judge to interpret what was ‘improper purpose’ to us.

Candacy continues: And we tell our lawyer that we don’t feel that he done a correct justice. We was supposed to be clear what the law is, so we will know, we will not able to break the law in future again. So the ‘improper purpose’ we could not define and they decide to hear us and then they said, okay, we give you another chance.

Candacy continues: We went to a court of appeal, and then when we went to the Court of Appeal, the Court of Appeal actually uphold what we were hearing from our high court, but with a little bit more definition, saying that if you wear a female attire to commit a robbery, then that may be the improper purpose. But then it's supposed to go before your magistrate, and the magistrate will determine what is the improper purpose that you've been picked up for.

Candacy continues: More problems. And it’s that time we remember this two other trans women at that particular time. They said that we were getting this justice from the highest court in Guyana at that time. There were two transwomen who had matters, one is Twinkle and now migrated. She had a problem where somebody lash her in the bus and she was going to court as she couldn't access the courtroom because the magistrate put her out, say she dressed in female attire. 

Candacy continues: So the interpretation -  going to court at a particular time, maybe that was the improper purpose, because she came from her home going to court to advance a matter where she’d been violated and the magistrate turn her away. 

Candacy continues: We had another of trans women that I know who were been assaulted by somebody went before the court in the same magistrate court, with the same magistrate and the magistrate  turn her away also,  saying that ‘she dressed in female attire and she cant enter this courtroom’. And we realize that the improper purpose didn’t work. Then we went all the way to the CCJ. 

00;15;54;01 - 00;16;51;03, Carla: And did you catch the last part? Listen good, Candacy ago pull it up fi we. She ago explain the oppressive impact of this law on the everyday lives of queer and gender non-conforming people. Hear how Candacy and her fellow organizers and co-plaintiffs read the initial judgment as she says, If they can't make sense of this judgment, whether by its language or because it doesn't make sense in day to day life, then who is this law serving?

Carla continues: So we're back to our question from episode zero. Just how independent are our countries anyway? How much control can we as Caribbean people have over our lives, regardless of sexuality, gender, race and class had not Candacy and her core plaintiffs held their governments to account. Well, this part of Justice Saunders’ judgment begins to answer that question.

[Act 3] The Case’s Impact

00;16;51;05 - 00;20;31;18, [ARCHIVAL AUDIO] The Honorable Justice A. Saunders in Quincy Mc Ewan, et. al v. The Attorney General of Guyana: The CCJ considered the alleged violations of the appellants constitutional rights to equality and nondiscrimination and freedom of expression. And the CCJ also considered whether the impugned law offends the rule of law. The court also considered whether SASOD was a proper party to the proceedings and the propriety of the remarks of the magistrate In considering the constitutionality of the impugned section the court further examined the historical context surrounding its promulgation as part of the vagrancy laws of post Emancipation era. Second, preliminary issue considered was the effect of the savings law provision and whether the impugned law was an existing law, and if it was, whether it was therefore immune from judicial scrutiny because of the savings law provision. This was in fact the fundamental plank upon which the state defended the challenge to the constitutionality of the law.

Justice Saunders continues: The CCJ noted that until its recent decision in Nervais and the Queen and Severin and the Queen, it had been the conventional wisdom that the savings clause completely immunized pre-independence laws from being had to be in contravention of the human rights laid out in the Constitution. The courts below adopted the conventional wisdom. The majority judgment reiterated the court law and society are dynamic not static.A constitution must be read as a whole. Courts should be astute to avoid hindrances that would deter them from interpreting the Constitution in a manner faithful to its essence and its underlying spirit. If one part of the Constitution appears to run up against an individual's fundamental right, then in interpreting the Constitution as a whole, courts should place a premium on affording the citizen, his or her enjoyment of the fundamental right, unless there is some overriding public interest.

Justice Saunders continues: The court observed that the Co-operative Republic of Guyana is an indivisible, secular, democratic and sovereign nation, and its most precious civic values are laid out in the country's constitution. Article 149 Sabbatical one of the constitution protects the people of Guyana from discrimination and states that no one is to be treated in a discriminatory manner by any person acting in the performance of the functions of any public office or authority.

Justice Saunders continues:The Constitution further provides that the state shall not deny anyone equality before the law. The appellants contended that cross-dressing law infringed these constitutional guarantees because it is rooted in gender stereotypes of how women and men should dress. Government must acknowledge on its own accord when a law, especially one like the impugned section has long passed its sell by date and serves no social or legal purpose.

Justice Saunders continues: Having regard to all the opinions expressed the court allowed the appeal and declared that Section 153 subsection 1, subsection 47, violated the Appellant's right to equality and nondiscrimination and to their right to freedom of expression. The court held that the section is unconstitutional and offends the rule of law. The court ordered that the sections struck from the laws of Guyana and awarded costs to the appellants in this appeal and in the courts below.

00;20;31;21 - 00;20;45;08, Candacy: Thank God for the CCJ With such a good judges, the ruling was it and it was unconstitutional to keep it in play.

[Act 4] Interlude: Somatic Check-In

00;20;45;11 - 00;21;56;03, Carla: Chiiille mek we just take a break right yah suh and take one big deep breath. There's something I want you to feel your way through. What comes up for you hearing about this case? What is happening in your body, your mind, your heart and your spirit? Does this change how you think about your country or region or diaspora? Does this change how you think about our independence?

Carla continues: So to all a the attorney dem inna the audience, oonu take a hint nuh oonu pursue the likkle opening dem weh Justice Saunders lef open nuh. Let’s queer our laws please, or at least can we make our laws better in the ways that only queer folks can.

[Act 5] GTU as Organizers

Carla: Now let's turn back to Candacy, who tells us more about Guyana Trans United's organizing strategy programs and services, and even how they get their trans led organizing funding.

00;21;56;06 - 00;25;12;00, Candacy: In terms of the community that we've been serving. I remember getting into this response very early, trans persons was dying because of the lack of knowledge in terms of HIV. Some of us might have been HIV positive, and co-infected but don’t know where to go to have services. Persons being HIV positive or being sick, they don’t want to go to a healthcare site because of the perceived stigma when they go there or would have been meted out to them as sometime before they would’ve been sick. 

Candidacy continues: So we had a lot of challenge comparing to now, that now we became an organization and providing these service. And even have social worker and person who from the general population assisting the other persons that work with us. So sometimes we do have peer educators who would be able to navigate persons from the community to alleviate some of the stigma.

Candidacy continues: If I should look back from when we start working to now, it might be a different change, because one of the thing when we started working in 2009 and in terms of mobilizing ourselves, myself have been appeared before the court for charged as male dressed in a female attire. It was a decade of court battle between myself and the government in terms of having the legislature to be changed that we were successful and went all the way to the Court, all the way to the CCJ our highest court.

Candidacy continues: However last - few months ago it was actually repealed into the Parliament to the law is also not on our books. So there's a lot of progress we've been doing, small baby steps. In terms of the community that we've been serving. I remember getting into this response very early. 

Candidacy continues: Under USAID we have a social worker. So the social worker would work with the person, every client on their individual need, we do have a peer educator who would normally go out and do HIV services in term of prevention messages, help persons to be navigated to have a test if they’re required to have a test, they would screen them for STI and refer them to - there’s some STIs that we do personal, there’s some that we refer outside to the healthcare site to do.

Candidacy continues: We under the HIV program, we do a lot of awareness. We also do navigation once persons in the service found to be HIV positive. Then we enable to navigate to a treatment site. We are so with the social worker, who will continue to monitor the client that they will able to be on virus suppression in terms of having medication.

  Candidacy continues: I remember in 2016, November 2016, we had three young trans woman I think with that was able to found their HIV status, in November, I could not forget that, I literally cried out because they were very young and one of the thing is that they could not take their medication home. Literally, we had the safe space at a time, and once they were able to come to the space at any given time, you were able to access the medication. They couldn't take the medication home because the fear and the stigma that would be attached to them.

00;25;12;02 - 00;25;26;29, Carla: I wonder if you heard that. Did you hear how safe spaces for work and shelter and just covering basic human needs come in for trans organizing.

00;25;27;02 - 00;29;11;17, Candacy: Funding has come to an end. It has come to an end. It was C.O.C. Initiative. It's come to an end. So the safe space is no longer, however though we at the office we able to create a room, because USAID  is more about HIV, about numbers, is about founding persons with HIV positive, linking them, putting them into care and so be it, that is about USAID. 

Candidacy continues: It is about donor driven number. What, what happened about the good thing about USAID they once they around, you able to pay the overhead you cover your rent, they pay the light bills and such forth.. So one of the thing is, is that because of that overall that they play a part, you able to do some cross-cutting issues as I would refer as.

Candidacy continues: So they don't know that I have a room in the office that if we have a real emergency case that a trans person could come and stay at, but we don’t have the space that we had because of the fact that USAID also they don’t, at one time when they were directly in Guyana we had an argument. We said, okay, people want to go on medication, they wanted to pick up their medication at the clinic because they would provide money to you to navigate the person once you found them HIV positive. 

Candidacy continues: They would provide money to you to take them to the clinic, but it would not give the same by providing money to you to buy a bottle of water, or a soda are maybe a meal if the person at the clinic, because they said the link is that HIV is a chronic disease so you should treat it like if you treated diabetics. So they don't see the need that you should fund a safe space or a hot meal towards the client. So sometimes you have cases when we actually run in with them with it and then we were told - a back and forth - but then it was never really holistically supported by them having safe space and meals for client.

Candidacy continues: The HIV grant is about numbers, meeting the numbers. You have 500 and something person to meet in three months. No, I'm just being low. But it's like 800 and something worse. And it wouldn’t only be trans, it would be MSM, sex worker and trans, but you have to meet 800 and something persons but you have to meet those indicated.So it's about numbers with the other grants. 

Candidacy continues: In terms of Astraea (Lesbian Foundation for Justice), which is that of an individual person, even though that the fund is small, you may be able to make an impact in the individual person life. So they would have cases where the person came up to us and wanted document to do for them, in terms of work certificate and we able to accommodate them. We able to pay the rent, like for instance there is a MSM person right now with co-infected HIV positive infected with TB but live on the street and we been navigating this person for years. And there's no other fund that we could’ve made to actually take out a money to say we can assist you in paying a rent for you actually for the next two weeks and whilst we in conversation with the ministry that assists in continuing to pay the rent

Candidacy continues:  There’s no words to express the Astraea grant especially when we hit with the pandemic. So last year before our COC fund came to an end and the only grant we had when USAID also came to an end was the Astraea grant for last year. We were able to flexible, able to pay our rent, we were able to continue the work for actually a year, even with the pandemic it's the only flexible grant that we do have in terms of community needs and addressing community challenges.

00;29;11;19 - 00;30;11;15, Carla: In the interest of transparency, Astraea Foundation is one of the two funders of this podcast, and we did ask all of our participants what getting funding from our mutual funders - Astraea, Equality Fund alongside Global Affairs Canada, meant for them. We asked about specific funders so that we could change our relationship to funding transparency in pursuit of rebalancing power. So we never just waah come portray the funder them inna waah flattering light and gwaan like everything good, no, we deh yah fi talk the truth and the thing is each of our participants seemed very happy with their partnerships with Astraea and Equality Fund. So take note of your thoughts and your visions here, what type of funding do we deserve within the movement? And what is the best way we can envision funding our very important work? 

00;30;11;18 - 00;31;17;03, Candacy: So one of the thing is, if I could able to change the mindset about this whole vulnerable groups of people that just including trans people and then we can able to literally see changes and a change in hearts and mind, as I said. So we have been for the longest - for a while now, we are able to go into police and do training, we are able to train the healthcare, we are able to go to the schools and train the teachers in teacher’s training college because  - a lot of lack of knowledge. So the teacher might be smart they might be bright, but they don't know how to be able to deal with LGBT persons.  And we’ve been able to go into those places and fo training, we were able to do family setting - so we had mother, we had father that came to GTU space where we do family support meeting for trans in terms of access - acceptance. So there's a lot of also training we've been doing, it’s not overnight is over a decade we've been doing this work.

00;31;17;05 - 00;31;33;03, Carla: For Candacy, the Sankofa link circles back to motherhood and family. This includes getting her family to a place of affirmation for her and her work.

00;31;33;05 -00;35;19;14, Candacy: What I can fairly said, I remember in my own personal experience growing up as a trans and I know myself from a very early age, I always share myself this, I know myself from maybe three year, nine months, and I had a aunt, assumingly at the particular time, maybe homophobic or transphobic, but I wouldn't use that word, but I always know she was literally used to shut me down she was said to me ‘You know me and you couldn't go by’  any little thing she would push me in the corner, because i’m always affirmative of my space from a very young age and she would said ‘you know me and you couldn’t go by’ but one of the thing that struck me, that aunt became my best aunt. She know lives in the States and I went to visit a few years I think was 2012. And I call her daughter because her daughter’s young and she maybe has more acceptance of LGBT because when we started the organization, she literally sent me the first computer and the first printer, when I said, I'm going to start my trans activist work.

Candidacy continues: And she send it. So when I was going to the States, I was going by her and she was by my cousin, which is her daughter. And I literally hear when she came to the airport she was inquiring to Lav, to my cousin, she said ‘Lavana, the parade finish? and my cousin say ‘what parade?’ hear she ‘the gay parade’ because they were living in that Eastern parkway at that particular time, she said ‘oh God Quincy come at such a wrong time that he woulda enjoy the parade’ and I was taken by surprise. So now this particular aunt… that I didn't even walk with female clothes at that particular time in my suitcase…want to carry me to this gay parade. So I was beginning to say the little that you do is changing heart and mind and I’ve been seeing that for years and not only with my family setting but a lot of family we’re able to work with.

Candidacy continues: Once we start doing to work and start mobilizing our people, our people will start to be empowered. I'm glad that we actually, found an organizing shop because when we look at it work that we look back from now, the then persons are more comfortable in seeking healthcare services, persons are more independent so to speak. Especially for the trans community.

Candidacy continues: I think when I started the work, the passion behind the works that still remain there in terms of many trans persons, would not able, now experience of coming out, would not able to migrate, in terms of when their family throw them out and if you dont have a space or structure for them it would create more challenge. For the gates that GTU opened it propelled me to keep the doors open cause many trans persons coming out on a daily and many trans persons when theycame out they don’t come with family support and its very impossible that if you dont have an organization such as GTU or any other trans led organization it might be ten times difficult in terms of our cost of living, in terms of space, in terms of medications, in terms of empowerment, so much keep me to the work and continue to stay here and for some

Candidacy continues: So much I keep me to do to work and continue to stay here and for some reason or the other, I wanted to move on and allow younger trans which I’m continue to work with younger trans persons in terms of empowering and building the capacity to take over leadership role, but it’s important for the door to keep open. 

00;35;19;17 - 00;36;11;27, Carla: And so the Sankofa link continues, working through interdependence together and through one another onto New Horizons. Like Sankofa, organizations such as Candacy her co-plaintiffs. Her clients on her community have always been here, in our Caribbean. 

Sealing this Episode

Carla: Colin Robinson, the ancestral guide of this podcast supported Candacy on her co-plaintiffs in this case, Stick a pin here If you don't know about Colin, please go back and listen to episode one.

Carla continues: When Candacy talks about Colin? You can hear the grin on her face. The lightness that comes with her remembrances.

00;36;12;00 - 00;37;29;19, Candacy: It would’ve been quite impossible for any young trans LGBT person. Especially get into the field of advocacy and I was not able to work with Colin. Colin was a loving soul. I think Colin was a great mentor. I remember going to a meeting and get stuck in Trinidad and called back home and I didn't know who to get on to and somebody called Colin and Colin flew to the airport, the first time I would’ve met with Colin.

Candidacy continues: Colin was such a wonderful soul, even to the US State Department grant that we first received it was coming through CariFlag at the time so CariFlag . But there were some hiccups in the way before it get to CVC, all the planning and getting the proposal for GTU to get it ready to work out and fine tune back and forth.

Candidacy continues: We didn't have the experience to put it in the proposal together. Kudos!  Oh my God Colin is such a wonderful soul. I don't think no young trans or LGBT person who in the world advocacy would’ve not experienced or know about Colin and his work.

00;37;29;21 - 00;37;38;26, Carla: Candacy first found affirmation in her gender identity from another elder her mother, that nice eeh!

00;37;38;28 - 00;39;39;05, Candacy: And one of the beauty thing about me and why I go back to family setting. I'm the second child for my mum, which was nine of us, and I had a lot of support from my siblings because growing up as a single, my mom was a single mom and I played the other role. So I had very support from my sibling growing up with them, we shared a love and a connection and the bond. 

Candacy continues: I remember at one time my mom and her sister, because we were sharing the space with my grandmother, my two other and the children. And I remember one of my aunt at the time was saying to my mom, ‘Are you not going to beat this way out of Candacy? you eee this kind of trade and expression? And I heard my mother, they weren't speaking to me because at night we had to go into our bed and they were discussing, I would have they would family chat and her sister was saying that to her and I remember my mom saying, ‘I'm not going to cut my belly, pull out my guts and throw it away then stuff it with grass, I can’t survive’. What she was saying there and then it's my child and I'm not going to deny my child love and right. 

Candidacy continues: So I grew up with that privilege that has the love. Even though we weren't rich [indiscernible] what we had, the family love, we had a connection. And I didn't let my aunt know what my mom said to her or the conversation, I never repeated because I was a child and I could not repeating big people conversation. But it built the courage and the courage for me to fight my fear because there and then it was saying to me…I wasn’t in pampers neither, I wasn’t going out and flaunt to say ok, i know I have the support from my family but it build something in me and that it one of the message we continue to work with trans family.

00;39;39;07 - 00;40;24;04 [CREDITS] Carla: This episode was produced by Rebel Women Lit and Queerly Stated with support from Astraea Lesbian Foundation for Justice, Equality Fund and Global Affairs Canada. Research on Writing by Jacqui Brown, Script Editing and Project Management by Dave-Ann Moses, Editing and Sound by Jherane Patmore and Safiyah Chinere, and Outreach by Ashley Dalley. Remember to head on over to the show notes to find the details of the organizers featured in our episode and Rebelwomenlit.com for additional references.

Carla closes: Thank you so much for joining me. Your host, Carla Moore, Under The Sycamore Tree …