Read Across Jamaica Day and Our Reading Culture - Like A Real Book Club: Episode 22

Hey beautiful ones.

One of our favourite kinds of literature is poetry. Its ability to hold the weight of histories, the gamut of human emotions and philosophies in a mere few lines is just *chef's kiss*.

Now we’re not saying we’re poets...but much like poetry, this new episode is short and sweet. For National Reading Day (celebrated annually on May 4th), we talk about the barriers to a loving relationship with recreational reading and how the national library service's weird rules to owning a library card is a part of that problem (and of course so much more).

It's the perfect episode to listen to while you detangle your hair or make yourself some breakfast.

Stay Lit 🌷

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Transcript

Jherane: Hi, welcome to Like a Real Book Club podcast, where we talk about books and just about everything else I'm Jherane.

Kristina: Kristina.

Ashley: and I'm Ashley

Jherane: And today is read across Jamaica day . So I know last couple of years they've had a lot of politicians going in schools, reading to kids, and a lot of corporate branding reading to kids. And it's been interesting to see what that looks like now that we're in a pandemic.

And I think it's a really good initiative. I wish it was sewn through the rest of our policies with regards to having more people are reading all the time and not just children. Did you guys know that today was Read Across Jamaica day?

Kristina: I knew that it was today. I know that it's something that we have, regularly. I agree with you that it's a really great initiative. A part of me does cringe at the PR element of it, but I guess I understand why something like that is important. If you see one of your favorite persons participating in something like this, it might Get you a little bit more interested in it. What are some of the activities that they've been doing?

I'm curious about how kids receive days like this I'm curious about what the interaction is like generally. And if an initiative like this actually does increase the interest in reading among kids, and if anybody is doing that kind of data collection

Ashley: Well, I have one anecdotal experience. I went to my dressmaker today and she has a nine-year-old daughter . And usually when I go there, she's in her school uniform and today she wasn't So I said, "Hey, what's going on? You didn't go to school today?" Because she has to put on her school uniform to go to school over zoom.

Anyway she told me that today was Read Across Jamaica day, which is cool. I didn't know before.  She goes on to tell me that somebody read them abook. I don't remember who she said, read her the book. I don't think it was like a public figures Jamaican celebrity, but she went in as a lot of detail about the book, because I told her to tell me what she remembered or tell me about the story.

And it was about the story of the boy named Peter whose grandmother told him never under any circumstances t o start on fire and him never listen to her and it will start a fire and almost bun down the house  so she took me through, she was talking for about 20 minutes very animatedly about the story. I feel like that was, sort off a success. I don't know if that would have motivated her to read the book, but I know that the story in particular she was super excited about and was able to talk in great detail about, so that was really great to hear and see how excited she was.

Though, I will say that. I think she kind of took this day as like a 'free day'. So, I mean, they didn't do their usual school things and she wasn't in her uniform. So I guess maybe she was at least a bit more relaxed, but. I mean, maybe that's not so much of a bad thing because reading should be comfortable and it shouldn't be this rigid thing that you only with school

I mean, I like that. I like that it was pretty casual. Yeah, so that's how I know that today was Read Across Jamaica Day.

Jherane: I think that's pretty cool. Cause I think what I really like about it is that  it calls for people to be animated with books. So if you ever witness them,  it's huge Jamaican storytelling style with the books and the kids are excited. Even if they don't know the person, it's someone, who's not their teacher, who's coming to talk to them.

And they're excited about

Kristina: exciting.

Jherane: so exciting. I just wish it was a bit more normal or like a bit more frequent.

So we've been having, inadvertently having discussions on Twitter about the library service here in Jamaica. I didn't know how inaccessible the library was. Like I knew the library resource issues, but I didn't realize how a lot the policies they have in place makes it inaccessible.

So apparently kids can't get library cards in Jamaica.

Kristina: Which still blows my mind.

Jherane: Yeah. So your parent has to take out the book for you and there's a limit to three books. So someone just tweeted their account to say that they have two kids. All of them are readers. So she's, a reader, her kids are readers, but by the time she gets them books and their kids' books, they don't last very long.

So they can only check out three books. She gets three books for her kids. By the time they get homethe book done . So you need a TRN to get the book for those who don't know, that's a tax registration number in Jamaica. You need to get you need a proof of address, whether it's a utility bill or you need a JP to certify that you live somewhere.

None of this makes any sense for me. Why are we making it harder for people to read when it's not today?

Kristina:  While I was observing that conversation, I wrote about the library that you were having onto it. It made me wonder how accessible, isn't the word, but how. Normal libraries are for some people. Cause I was thinking to myself that when I was younger, the only library that I knew of was the library at my primary school.

I wasn't aware of the, or maybe I was aware of, but I didn't think that it was something that I could visit. I don't. I think the first time I actually visited the library was in high school

Ashley: Some sort of field trip?

Kristina: No, I think I visited it in high school. Actually I think during the fifth form when we're studying and preparing for CSEC, I think that was the first time that I actually went and visited the library and saw what it looked like.

But as I'm trying to recall my understanding of library being a place that I could actually go to, to sit and read books, I don't think that I had that idea. In my head, I'm trying to figure out why that was for me reading, books, meant, reading, whatever my brother had at that time.

So sometimes those were, the Hardy Boys books, and sometimes those were his textbooks that I just randomly tek up and read because it was there. Or I remember in primary school Because we used to have vendors outside. And sometimes there were vendors there who had like random books about very random things and they were selling them for cheap.

And I bought them on that. So, you know, I'd get books to read, but I don't recall really knowing and understanding the library as a place that I could go to for recreational reading. My understanding of library was this big place that was sort of far removed from me. It was something that felt adult yeah, it didn't feel like something for me, if that makes sense.

yeah that's been something that was on my mind while I was thinking about how inaccessible it seemingly is. Or the different barriers that are in place that can affect so many people who would be interested in going to the library and just picking up books to read.

Ashley: I totally agree. The library that I would have the most access to would be Tom Red Ca m Library and anybody who's (Red Cam). Right? Yeah. So it's like right beside Upper Park Camp.

Kristina: Little Theatre,

Ashley: and Little Theatre and-

which interestingly, so I used to go to Little Theatre to dance and it never occurred to me that it was right beside, Little Theatre either.

Jherane: Oh, no.

Kristina: Nope. Nope. Nope. Which is very sad

Ashley: Because it's like, it's such a tiny space. I mean, I used to go there sometimes. But that would be, it wouldn't be to read recreationally. It would be to do - -I know that I used the meet up there to have extra lessons, Spanish, extra lessons a few times, and then to do some sorts of research for school.

But then I'm thinking about  and maybe I'm reading it or looking into it too deeply, but in terms of you see how institutions like the Library Service in Jamaica shows you. Like how deeply routine we have or class issues, because who are the types of people that go to the library?

People who I know what's the type of, well, not necessarily energy, but in terms of the type of people that other people expect to see in the library and send to the library. They're usually people maybe who come from a working class background who may not have access to certain services like internet.

And so they all have to share a communal space and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I know definitely that growing up,the type of framing around using the library that I would always hear is  It's very, almost negative in a way where it's like, yeah, just go to the library.

 If I'm trying to explain, I don't know if I can explain what I'm thinking about, but you only expect certain people to go to the library. And I'm thinking about my relationships with libraries in general. There was a library at my high school and it's not somewhere that I used to go a lot to like, just sit down and read recreationally or even when I was at UWI. I mean, I'm go to the library to do work, but I'm not just going to chill out there. And just, that's not my spot where I go on. And just browse the aisles and read. And I don't know if that has more to do with me as a person and the type of activities that I gravitate towards or what libraries is like an institution mean to people in the 21st century.

But I know that especially, maybe in a secondary school system, people who seek the services of public libraries, there is like a class imbalance. And I think that the playing field kind of levels a little bit more when you go on to tertiary education, because there's some things that you need at a library that you can't access anywhere else.

I mean, will strengthen whatever it is that you're trying to research on.  So everybody kind of just uses it. But yeah, a lot of memories  memories of me being at Tom Red Cam Library and just seeing droves of school-aged children. It's a place that people go to just hang out and get away from their house and.

I don't know if it's necessarily read and you meet people and you hear stories about things that happen at the library.  I think that's the people who operate it too or managing to, there is like a disparity, especially with the age gap, because they're young people who are accessing the services of the library.

People are very quick to dismiss because they assume that every young person who goes to the library doesn't really go to use it in a way that they think should be used.

 I didn't see the conversation that was happening, but I hope that those types of topics are sprinkled in because there's a lots of like judgment, especially by older folk towards younger folk who want to have access to the library.

Kristina: I was here thinking about that class analysis that you brought in. And I wonder if that's mostly a Kingstone thing. Cause I feel like the people that

Jherane: No, it's not.

Kristina: Okay. Okay. But I definitely agree with you though

looking back now, I'm kind of wondering What kind of perceptions do we create nationally about libraries? And I guess about reading in general. So for a day like this Jherane had mentioned earlier that it would be great if it was an initiative that wouldn't be on children and yeah. Why not?

What is the The barrier or the reason behind not making it a general thing or a thing that targets adolescents, adults, senior citizens, just literally everybody what is the thing that prevents that-

Jherane: cause we don't actually care. I think it's easy to tell children to read because in your head it's like, "Reading is the future, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But the idea of you doing it for yourself, of you nourishing yourself with knowledge, feels like "I don't have enough time." And that to me is a problem because if it is that you, aren't going to do the thing.

Don't tell other people to do it,

Ashley: either people don't read at all, but they're telling  the younger generation to read or what they do read are just books that are about getting ahead. And I know we've spoken about this to some degree in various podcasts and also meetings book, club meetings.

But I think that there is something to be said about people who only read self help books. I just, I don't know that we're all striving for improvement to be a better version of ourselves. But if your only concern is to grow your capital and to be the leader of our group, or to influence people,

I don't know how you can actively try to encourage somebody else to read about like, just recreationally, because those are not the type of books that we're reading to our children. We're not telling them that there is a, these are the 10 secrets to excelling at primary school, or like this is a self-help book to my kid. Or whatever. I don't know. But I just sit

Jherane: Don't give them any ideas.

Ashley: Oh yeah, I shouldn't. Right? But then I'm thinking about where the

transition comes in. Like, Oh my God, man. What, like what happens when or where is the transition between, I get to read about a really interesting story about fire and this little boy not listening to his grandmother.

And then all of a sudden I'm only expected to read about to. Growing, getting ahead, and growing capital, stocks, and whatever it is.

Jherane:  Jamaica has a  hustle culture. America has a hustle culture as well, and that is the dominant culture in our media. So there's just this weird rush, this anxiety around making money, making lots of money and surviving is really hard. But then there's this added culture of, if you're not.

Hustling or if you're not looking at ways to improve your hustle, then you're wasting time. And it's always such a culture shock to go to other countries where they don't have a hustle culture, even amongst working class people. There's this understanding of this need for rest. CS does our thing. Closing businesses, if it's too hot or too cold is a thing, not  because of.

Poor infrastructure . But just because the conditions are not ideal first to be working and we don't have that Jamaica very much has a hustle culture. So if you're going to be spending your free time reading, it should be to improve your hustle. And I get that. I just think it's very sad.

I think it's sad that we haven't recognized that. And I think that as adults we won't be able to fix the gaps in our reading culture if the people who are involved in these initiatives themselves, aren't looking at their peers and saying, "Hey, you should be reading as well."

Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably the major issue with why nationally we don't do more encouragement of adults reading recreationally. It's like after, after that childhood age where you're already learning to read, so this is the best step to, to. Continue to push you to read more.

But after that, after schooling age, after a tertiary education, and you're now thrown into the rat race and it's a fight to survive. And so the predominant thing that you're thinking about now is all the different ways that I can survive. That looks like

Jherane: Building your brand

Kristina: Exactly like exactly that it looks like building your brand.

It

Jherane: monetizing your hobbies,

Kristina: about... mi no know whatever  people be doing, but that as well as

Jherane: nothing wrong with that. It's just that's the

Kristina: it's the only

Jherane: thing

It's like a burn-out recipe

Kristina: and I'm kind

of changing my mind around self-help. Not that I want to read self-help books, but I get why people are reading self-help books.

Life is hard for one, but also, people are looking for ways to to exist within the system. They're looking for to continue within the system and maybe even try to quote unquote, "beat the system".

Jherane: And hack life

Right? Exactly.

person

Kristina: to beat it too. So, so I get running to these things.

I may think that they're just empty feel- good platitudes, but those things are extremely empowering for people  it ties into the continuous race, always being on the hamster wheel. Always having a new, innovative idea, et cetera, et cetera.

Ashley: Yeah. I totally agree with Kristina

Everything gets dropped when you get to a certain age or you get to a certain point points in your life where you nuh bodda wid dem ting deh no more. You're not allowed to like, or you're not encouraged to explore and to think outside of the box and to expand your horizons outside of current events and self-help and getting rich, like there's no encouragement to do more and to read more and be more.

And I think in about maybe it's a Bible verse, or maybe it's just a religious quote about to "when I was a child, I did childish things when I became a man I had to put down my childish ways." I don't know if that's a quote. Don't come for me, religious people, but just in terms of like, why is reading considered childish?

Why is it that it's considered a childish and why is it that we're only promoting it to children. Because it's primary school children too. I'm hard pressed to find any sorts of like newspaper articles or pictures of them in high schools. And if it's the high school it's in the lower schools, still at 15 or 16 and under that is encouraged to read  everybody else over

Kristina: I mostly sit I'm with yeah. Mostly sit them with primary school age children, or I don't recall seeing photos of them in high school. They probably do go to high schools, but I don't know. But in the same vein. So while I was what I'm reading and trying to finish My Fishy Stepmom, I was thinking to myself that this book is such a great way to keep a Caribbean mythology alive such a great way to pass that on to younger generations.

Cause I'm thinking now about whether. Or what's our oral history. What's the word? Oral history culture, maybe. What that looks like for us here in Jamaica and wondering if that's still a vibrant sort of thing, where grandparents great grunt aunts, just older people in our families, whether they still share these stories and share these Different myths and folklores.

I'm trying to recall if that exists now, because I can remember in like primary school, we used to have those little, those really flat books.I don't know who used to give them to us, but I remember a lot of those books with a lot of Anansi stories. I remember learning about the White Witch of Rosehall from one of those books.

And this woman that turned into a cat one bag a sumn and I'm very curious about whether we have children's books, that center Jamaican folklore now. But yeah, this book makes me very curious about our oral history, oral tradition culture here in Jamaica.

And how vibrant that is right now. If that's all

Jherane: I think it's a mix where all lots of people are moving towards documenting it, and people are still keeping the oral tradition alive. Just before we wrap up. Cause this is supposed to be a really short episode

Kristina: I was looking at the time

Jherane: as long as have to be a bit Clare that, my ideas around toRead Across Jamaica thing is not about Read Across Jamaica, per se, it's just, our attitudes towards the culture of reading. I think we target it a bit too much on children. I get why we do it because you're supposed to build a habit, but then it just kind of drop off very quickly after

Kristina: doesn't become a regular

Jherane: which means. Yeah. It's for a particular age group and then we move on .

Ashley: Definitely not a coincidence that it's in May because

Jherane: it's education month yeah. Or education week?

Ashley: And child's month. 

Kristina: All just a campaign

Jherane: yeah.

Kristina: as in like, not even just that, nothing, not

Points and activity play.

hopefully reading becomes a lifestyle. Like, I don't know, maybe they need to make it a trend off sorts.

Ashley: They need to start a campaign like Jamaica Moves.

Kristina: That would be

Ashley: Jamaica

Kristina: cool.

Jherane: Jamaica Reads

Ashley: So everybody in Jamaica Reads exactly.

Jherane: yeah, I'd be done for that. That'd be really cool. Really nerdy in all the best ways..   I'm looking forward to a change in our reading cultures.

So if you're listening to this episode for the first time, that means you are not a sustaining member for Rebel Women Lit, and you are missing out on opportunity of supporting the work that we do at Rebel Women Lit, which includes our own private library that we send via mail to people and a bunch of other things that we do.

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Kristina: Follows across your social media

Jherane: Yeah, we have really interesting conversations on Twitter, such as this sometimes are funny on Twitter. Well, I think,

Kristina: talk about books and everything else. Just like the podcast,

Jherane:  Bye. See you at the club!

Interview with Jacqueline Bishop About The Gift of Music and Song - Like A Real Book Club Podcast Episode 22

Listen to this episode on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts

Journalist, poet, novelist, artist, (and now archivist) Jacqueline Bishop recently released her first collection of interviews which focuses on documenting the craft and lives of 13 Jamaican women writers, in The Gift of Music and Song.

The Gift of Music and Song is an intimate account that engages monumental Jamaican Women Writers in the context of anti-colonial and anti-misogyny praxis in the country and the politics of Jamaican women in literature, research and publishing. This beautiful collection features interviews with Olive Senior, Lorna Goodison, Marcia Douglas, Hazel Campbell, Velma Pollard and many more. Kristina and Jherane talk to Jacqueline about the process of creating these books and the reason why we all have a responsibility to archive.

To support this show and more work like this, become a sustaining member of Rebel Women Lit today rebelwomenlit.com/join#sustaining, you can also shop The Gift of Music and Song in the Rebel Women Lit show.

Episode Transcript, made possible by our sustaining members.

Kristina Neil 0:00  

Hey everyone. Welcome to “Like a Real Book Club,” a podcast from Rebel Women Lit where we talk about books and just about everything else. I'm Kristina. For this episode of the podcast, you'll be dropped into an interview with the brilliant Jacqueline Bishop – stellar interviewer, writer and archivist, as dubbed by Rebel Women Lit, where we talked to her about her collection of interviews, “The Gift of Music and Song: Interviews With Jamaican Women Writers.” We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did.

Jherane Patmore 0:32  

[Have you] gotten to that part of the book yet Kristina about Elliott bliss. 

Kristina Neil 0:38

Not yet.

Jherane Patmore 0:39

The Elliott bliss was the first one I read because it, I'd never heard of her. And I thought I knew everyone, or at least knew of everyone. (laughs) Or, like, I've heard about these people before, even if I haven't read their work, this was really blew me away as this person that obviously would have such a great interest in terms of what I do, in terms of what I'm interested in. I've never heard of her. So…

Kristina Neil 1:08

Thank you, Jacqueline. 

Jherane Patmore 1:09

Thank you, Jacqueline, for doing that. Thank you for bringing her to light, or even more into the light, into the spotlight. Yeah, I guess we could start around there. How this body of work fits into the work you want to do as an artist. Why did you feel compelled to put this work together?

Jacqueline Bishop 1:31  

First, I want to say thank you for having me on the programme. And I want to thank you both for the work that you do. Rebel Women have gone on to establish itself not only in Jamaica, but as a brand abroad as well. And just about everybody knows the organization now. It's in major magazines. Everybody talks about it. It's quite an honor to be asked to, to be on the program. So thank you for so much for the work that you do, and for prioritizing and the voice of women so often in the work that you do. So thank you so much. I don't know too many organizations that I would get up for at one o'clock in the morning in London to do an interview with. So thank you so very much. Of course in thanking you, I think I've totally forgotten much of the question that you asked, but perhaps, Yeah, a good place to start is with Elliot bliss. So many people are interested in Elliott bliss, and who she is. I was, too, quite surprised when I met Michela Colorado. We met more than two decades ago. I will never forget the meeting. I myself was starting a literary magazine, Calabash, a journal of Caribbean arts and letters. At the time I had just about finished graduate school at NYU, and had gotten summer teaching gigs, some kind of teaching gig at NYU. I've pretty much stayed at NYU for a very long time. I'm still at NYU. And she came up to me. I'll never forget. we met at the library, Bob's, in front of NYU, and she's telling me about this woman who was a writer, Jamaican white Creole, and also lesbian in the, the turn of the century 1800s, early 1900s, Jamaica. And I just thought this whole thing was a, quite a fictional thing, tale that she was telling me, that I was sure that this could not be. I thought this was fable. And she had published books that were out of date, and she had been working on Elliott bliss for quite some time. I am so happy that last year her “Biography of Bliss” got published by the University of the West Indies Press. And, so, Michela is one of the people that was interviewed in this collection, The Gift of Music and Song, speaking about who Elliot Bliss is, the work that she has done, and her contributions to, to Jamaican literature and women's literature. So, she's here as well. And maybe you can ask your question again, and I can get to answer it.

Jherane Patmore 4:30  

(Laughs) No worries. Question was: tell me a bit about yourself, the work that you do and why you thought this particular collection was important for the body of work you're creating, the legacy you want to leave behind.

Jaqueline Bishop  4:46  

So, thanks for the reminder. So, you know, to be fair, I didn't envision the interviews as a book when I started out doing. The interviews spring from seven several sources. One is my own interest in the interview is a form. This is an interest that I've had for several years now. Trained as an oral historian at Columbia University that has found form in a book called “My Mother Who Is Me: Life Stories from Jamaican Women in New York,” when I, when we had Calabash up and running. I tried to involve interviews in that publication as much as possible. And I think there's one interview in this book from my Calabash days, but then Sharon Leitch, and I, Sharon Leitch is the editor of the book and section at the Jamaica Observer. I used to publish, I would publish an interview every now and again in the book hand section of the Observer, most notably Hazel Campbell, who we lost not too long ago, and we got to talking about the lack of interviews for women, in particular, Jamaican women specifically. And so, one summer about, several years ago, five, ten years ago, we did a series of interviews that went over quite well. But then about three, four years ago, we did a series of interviews with Lorna Goodison, among others. And that did extremely well. And so we decided to continue doing these interviews. And in addition to focusing on Jamaican women, we broadened it to a little bit and did Caribbean writers as well. Now, even then, it didn't occur to me that this was a book. I was very just very, very pleased, and Sharon was too, to just be having the voices of these women in a national newspaper and speaking to as broad an audience as possible in Jamaica. And you know how it is, anything that's locally Jamaican is national and international. Right? Jamaica is international, it's just how things are with Jamaica. And wherever I would go, people would mention these interviews to me. And after a while, people kept calling for a book, a book. And the publisher, People Tree Press, eventually reached out to me and said, did I want to make these into a book? And that's how this book came together. I've continued, as you probably know, doing these interviews, and so, I hope that there will be a book two of Jamaican women writers interviews.

Jherane Patmore  7:54  

Also…

Jacqueline Bishop 7:55 

I hope I answered.

Jherane Patmore 7:56

Yeah, you did. Also, a quick apology. I thought you were based in New York, when I had set the time, because I knew you're still at NYU. So I thought you were based there. I'm so sorry. I did not mean to have you up at 1AM. I'm not… yeah 

Jacqueline Bishop 8:16

NYU, has campuses in London, they have campuses in Italy, in, all over the place. And so for the past three years, I've been based here. I am going back to the states in May. just about all these interviews that I've been doing, or people who have been setting meetings with, everyone thinks I'm in New York, actually. But I'm actually in London. Yeah. So the second part of your question is, how does this fit into the larger project of what I am doing? And, I don't think I consciously set out to do some of the things I do but, but when I look back, I think that they unconsciously connect, and that I prioritize certain things in the work that I do. Among other things that I prioritize is the untold story. And I prioritize women's voices. And I think that those things really come together quite forcefully in this book.

Kristina Neil 9:26

I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what the process of coordinating such a book was like. And you also spoke about, there was a desire from others for you to put these interviews together into a book. Why was it, was it important for you for a book like this to be created, for a book like this to exist with these voices? So what was the process of putting this together and then your interest in having such a book like this exist? Oh God, I hate the internet so much. I was asking you about your, Yeah. So, I was asking about your, the process, the process that you went through to coordinate such a book and to compile a book like this with all of your interviews, as well as your own, your own feelings towards why such a book is important, why the documentation of these women writers is important for us to have?

Jacqueline Bishop 10:28  

Actually, it was the first part of your question. It was quite, it wasn't as difficult to put the book together, because in so many ways, Sharon Leitch had done so much of the work already for me. So, I mean, I had done on the back end, I had done so much of the work in reading these women and formulating the questions and getting the interview done. But on the, on the front end, Sharon did a lot of work in editing the interviews and getting them published. So compiling them wasn't, wasn't that that difficult a process. The second part of the question is a more nuanced thing to have to deal with. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by this. Before Hazel Campbell knew that this book was in the works, Hazel Campbell knew what the cover of this book was going to be like. And we had discussions about this and so forth and so on. But Hazel Campbell died before this book was published, and his handbook was in the process of dying, as this book was in the works, and I don't know of too many interviews with someone like Hazel Campbell. So that says something of the importance of this book. Because Hazel Campbell is one of our best short story writers. Hazel Campbell, she has been personally very kind to me as a younger writer, but she has nurtured untold amounts of other Jamaican writers, including Garfield Ellis, who has since died as well. So she has contributed enormously to Jamaican literature. She as well was, she's, she's been instrumental in many areas of Jamaican arts. And in some ways, this book rests on the shoulders of Hazel Campbell, in so far as we became Facebook friends, and it was a bit of an overwhelming experience for me because I, I had read Hazel Campbell when I was much younger, and trying to find my way as a writer. She was one of those writers that I read. And I had seen her on Facebook talking about books that she had published, and that had just been completely overlooked in Jamaica. no one was reviewing her books, no one was talking to her about her books, she was just completely overlooked. And so, I took the opportunity to interview her about these books. And that interview not only made its way into this book, but something she said about wanting in the next life the gift of music and song gave the title to this book. And there are women in this collection, who have an international reputation, and I've been interviewed in other places, but more often than not, that's not the case here. And I think of the Trinidadian writer, Monique Ruffy, when she was talking about this book, she said, I bet people do not know that there are so, there's all this abundance of talent, you know, of female talent in Jamaica, there's been so much of an erasure of women's voices as writers. And this is why a book like this is important. It is important not only to document these women, but also what goes into the making of their works, right? What they think about their work, you know? And it is particularly important because we tell not one of us are going to be here forever. But hopefully a book like this will go on and on and on, and give witness to the fact that we have been here and we have been writing. So there you go.

Kristina Neil 15:06  

Thank you for that. And as you said that I was thinking to myself that I'm actually glad that we're able to have this interview with you. Because this too is documentation. 

Jacqueline Bishop 15:17

Yes, yes! Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, this, this in and of itself is documentation, right? It's significant, that it's documentation by other Jamaican women who are saying, we are interested in our country women. this is important. This is very, very important.

Kristina Neil 15:41  

I mean, I can't for Jherane, but one of my favourite things about Rebel Women Lit is the commitment to women's voices, specifically in the Caribbean, and queer voices. And I don't know if she'll hate this, but leaving a legacy behind in terms of, in terms of just the importance of engaging these writers, because they're just so important to not just our cultural production, as Jamaicans and people living in the Caribbean, but just in our lives, they say and do so much in terms of documenting all of our experiences.

Jacqueline Bishop 16:22  

Okay, let me just let me just address that for a moment. Another part of the reason why I am in the UK is that I have many, many, many, many, shameful to admit, many, many, many, many, many Master's degrees. It's embarrassing how many Master's degrees. I'll never admit to how many I have. But this is the first PhD that I'm doing. So, I'm here doing my PhD as well. The archive for black women's voices is this big, right? Trying to dig through the archive to find black women's voice is a problem. And the more we go back in time is the smaller and the slimmer it becomes, right? So this is not, this is a very, very important thing to try and make an archive for voices of our thoughts, right? Because it's not that many that is there, right? It is a very small thing, right? So, and every day, as I sit down before this dissertation, I lament all the things I will not know about black women, because it is not in the archive. So let me just say that.

Jherane Patmore 17:59  

I feel like you're speaking to my soul right now. A few years ago, I was in a used bookstore and I saw this book by Hazel Campbell, and I had never heard of her before. And I picked it up, and I read it. And it was brilliant. And I Googled, I could not find much about her. And then I found another book, Singer Man, I found and I read it, loved it. No one was talking about it. I don't even think, if I remember correctly, it doesn't even have a Goodreads page. But there was nothing I could find about the author, about craft of what it takes to produce these stories. And then, and I just thought it was very tragic, because I didn't know anything about this writer who created these brilliant stories. And I thought I probably never will. And then I saw about your book came out with, and I didn't know the influence Hazel Campbell would have had on you as a writer or the significance she would have had in this book. So, thank you so much for doing that. Thank you for using or creating space for these other writers, because I think it's so important to document this. And we, we obviously both agree on that. But also, I think what you do as someone who not only writes, but I think someone who also has an interest in craft is that you focus a lot on that, the actual process of writing, the history of that. So, I'm curious about the technical aspects of your interviews. How do you prepare for them? And what made you think “this is the conversation I'm going to share with the world” because I'm sure you talk to these writers a lot. So I'm always curious about when you decide “This is the conversation we share” versus “This is the private conversation that we have. How do I determine what enters the archive?”

Jacqueline Bishop 19:59  

Actually, I don't talk to them a lot. 

Jherane Patmore 20:02

Really? I just assume all the writers talk to each other all the time.

Jacqueline Bishop 20:05  

Some of them I have personal relationships with. But in terms of the interview, I don't talk to them a lot, you know? And there are writers, one of the things that people complain about my interviews, the writers complain a lot, is that the questions are very, very hard. This is, you know? and I actually just had someone who refused to do an interview, because she's like, the questions are very hard. And I think she just didn't want to engage with. Listen, an interview is not about saying how wonderful you are, and just like, rubbing you down and this is just, you're just so great and so wonderful. An interview, at least, as far as I'm concerned, really engages with the idea, I try to engage with the ideas in your work. And sometimes I, in doing so, I might spot things that you might not have spotted in your own work, I am thinking of an interview that I did with an author, really esteemed, I really like him a lot. And he said, “Why must your questions be this hard”. But he went ahead, and he answered them anyway. And sometimes authors just don't want to engage with the ideas in their work, you know? Because it's looking at the omissions in their work. And it's looking at very untidy things that they don't want to engage with. I'm assuming some of the very things happen in my own writing, right? And people can call me on, on various things. So, so there's that they… Let me just say something about Hazel Campbell and craft. There was no more solid person than Hazel Campbell on craft, right? she was the mistress of craft. I don't know how much in future years, we will, someone will do a biography or some kind of PhD on Hazel Campbell, and we will get to know how much she has really worked with writers on their craft. She has transferred this knowledge to others. But I can attest to the fact that Hazel has looked at, and made better, much of my own work. She has had a lot of discussions with me on craft, right? And Hazel ran workshops and trained generations of writers very quietly, right? And made works so much the better, and so much stronger. And I hope that others will come forward and talk about the ways in which Hazel did this, right? I really hope that they will. And that this will become part of her legacy as well. Right? Because she was, ahm, so solid on this, she was rock solid on this. And speaking of sometimes not wanting to get the, the kind of feedback you got. Sometimes she gave me feedback that hurt my feelings (laughs). But it made me into a better writer. And the interesting thing about Hazel is she did this all very quietly. So thanks for this discussion on hazel, right? 

Kristina Neil 23:50  

Thank you so much for sharing your history with Hazel Campbell and just how much of an amazing person she was, and writer. So while I was looking through this book, and looking at the sort of questions that you asked, it just feels like you have a great interest in the background of the writer, their history and everything that's fundamental to them. So, I wanted to find out from you. If, if it is that you feel that the core of the person determines the kind of story that they write and how they tell their stories and just why is it important for you to really show the humaneness of the writer even while engaging with their work?

Jacqueline Bishop  24:32  

A bunch of the people that I interviewed, my sense of it were, was that they said, they took the opportunity to really, I feel lucky because they, they took it that they, overwhelmingly in the interviews people took the process very seriously, right? You look at an interview with someone like Pamela Mordecai, and what you get is not just Pamela Mordecai’s personal story, but she wraps her story in a history of Kingston as well, right? So you come away feeling I not only know this person, but I know Kingston. I know a little bit more about the city. That is, you know, the cultural history of Kingston. So, this is my philosophy about an interview, and how what an interview functions and what it is that an interview is supposed to do. An interview, in Jacqueline's world is supposed to illuminate a body of work, right? it tells us something about the work. And it tells us something about the person who made the work, right? Where does this work come from? Right? So, you get a sense of what this work is about. And it really works best if the, the, the person themselves, is surprised by things that they did not know about their own work, right? So, all the people who are getting pissed off by the questions, I like that, because there are things about the work that you did not know, right? And, of course, I try never to be disrespectful to anyone, and, but this work comes from somewhere, it's coming from somewhere, right? So to understand where the work is coming from, you under… you need to understand something about the person who created the work, right? So to understand my focus on women, for example, you have to understand that I had the most phenomenal grandmother, ever, right? And, and I had a pretty good mother too. But my grandmother and I, it was exceptional. And, and my grandmother would take me to the small district, my family, my maternal family's from this small district called Nonsuch, and they were all, there was a grandmother, and there was a great-grandmother. And there's my mother and all these women who were doing all these fantastic things. Now, I think it's important, at first I thought I couldn't see as clearly as I can see now, how much of what I create comes from this, comes from this world. So, I think that to really understand Lorna Goodison, and her focus on sewing in her works, you have to understand that her mother was a seamstress, right? And a really good one, as well. And that's why I try to do two things in the interviews. I try to get readers to understand. I try to get the interviewee to talk about the work. But I also try to get them to talk about where the work comes from, which is to give us something of their biography.

Kristina Neil 28:32  

It's really interesting that you mentioned that you like when the authors are pissed off by your questions. I was messaging Jherane today that while reading the interview with Olive Senior, it felt so much like she was just not, she was just not here for your questions. And Olive was just not interested in answering or well, the types of questions that were being asked. You were very insistent, especially that question about violence in Jamaica. I was like, mmhmm, okay, you were very insistent that she give you a response to that question.

Jacqueline Bishop  29:07  

I don't know if you saw the book launch, the wonderful book launch, that the University of the West Indies, the department of Literatures in English, did. And Tanya surely pulled out certain moments in that particular interview and talked about it as well. It's quite interesting. Of course, congratulations to Olive for being the new “Poet Laureate” of Jamaica.

Kristina Neil 29:34

Absolutely, this book club is an Olive Senior stan.

Jherane Patmore 29:41  

Yeah, that reminds me, need to submit her for some national awards now. Yeah. I wanted to ask when, when someone deliberately decides to create work for posterity, how do you go about editing that work? How do you go about, from selecting which writers you want to interview, which writers you're going to include in this book, to actually editing the interview? Because, for me, archivists kind of play a role, kind of like a godlike role when it comes to what is documented and what is shared.

Jacqueline Bishop 30:20  

Well, to be honest, I don't see myself so much as an archivist, though I do think that perhaps the work is functioning in that way, being one of my difficult interviewees. I guess, my focus overwhelmingly, is on the untold story, the untold voices, those we do not generally hear from, those we generally do not see. Those are the people that I give most priority to, because I think those are the ones that are in danger, most, of not being archived. So, if, since you've declared me an archivist, to be fair, I don't think you're pulling things out of the air, there is an archivist impulse in a lot of the things that I do. I don't, yes, I was, I was about to say, I don't see myself as an archivist. But to be fair, there is an archivist impulse in in so much that I do. But if you look, Jherane, there is the, the, the answer to your question, if you in, in the work that I select to do. So, Jamaican women's voices in New York, right? Jamaican women writers. Women who are textile workers in Jamaica. So much, so many of the women's that we dub… “women's” Look, so many of the women that we don't hear from or we do not see or who we walk by, those are the people that get centre stage in my world. Someone mentioned to me that my Wikipedia page had been updated. So, I went to look. And when I went to look, I realized that I had been asked to do a story for an anthology that Margaret bug, bug, buzz, Busby had put out. And it's called “The Vanishing Woman.” And it tells the story of this enslaved woman who is also a needle worker. That pretty much is who I was setting out to archive, and she's making this gorgeous embroidery piece. And so yeah, that's, that's, she is who I have in my sight. Hazel Campbell is who I have in my sight. Those are the women that I have in my sight.

Jherane Patmore 32:58  

I want to ask why you think these women have, have not been archived? And it's something that as someone who, when I get the free time, I'm at the National Library doing things that I have no particular goal in mind. It's just a curiosity. And something that I think should be, like, it's there, why aren't we… I'll give you an example, just to contextualize this. So, abortions in Jamaica is something, abortions generally is something that's been happening for centuries. It's something we've always done. Yet the National Library's documentation on abortions, it's limited to opinion pieces that have been in the Gleaner. And I just could not understand why there were no first-hand accounts, I couldn't understand why any of this existed. Why have no, why haven't any women or anyone who's actually had an abortion or conducted an abortion, why haven't that, why hasn't that been documented? It's something that's just so obvious to me. And all I could think is, really, why haven't we done it? So, I'm curious to hear from your perspective, as to why you think we have not seen this as important to have in the archives, to have in the National Archives. What makes construction as to what we remember the nation, as what image do we have a foreign nation that disconnects from the reality of our nation?

Jacqueline Bishop 34:40  

Well, let's understand something here. The archive is a tool of empire to begin with, right? And it continued as a colonial construct, right? So, the archive itself was meant to represent the, what empire thought it should, right? It was meant, that's the founding of an archive. This is who we are as an empire. And this is what we the empire, England, thinks is important to record. Hence, we do not have records of enslaved bodies and enslaved people. And we have continued in that in a colonial state and a post-colonial state. This is just facts, right? I find the, so, that's just archiving, right? I find your, your example interesting. But the answers are almost there, right? Female bodies are political bodies, right? And there have been multiple attempts to control female bodies. Because female bodies are sexualized bodies. And they're also reproductive bodies, right? And, as such, they should be controlled. In addition to which you have religion pressing down on female bodies, right? All sorts of religious institutions and whatnot pressing down on female bodies. Now, if you start to add these things to it, it's, like, you're not my student, let's be very clear about this. But it's, like I said, I would say to my students, oftentimes, you have like a toolbox, right? And you just start taking out the tools out of this toolbox, right? And so first, you say, our archive tool of empire, post- colonial tool, you know? So, our empire is not interested in abortions. So, that's one reason why you don't find it there. Why were we brought here? We were brought here, brought to the Jamaica, we indigenized and all sorts of things, but as a source of labor and reproduction. That runs in the face of abortion, right there, Right? To say nothing of the fact that the knowledge, our knowledge, was discounted in that we, we came along with, as to abortions and whatnot. Now, the good news is Jherane, oftentimes I say to my students, is that the very tools of empire can be used against empire. That's the beauty of it. And that's, that's the, this is my dissertation, right? So, if you are interested in this, I can guarantee you that within the very archives are the answers of the things you want to find, both within the archive, and you can create your own archive, right? Which, hopefully, can get added to this to this archive, or to new archives that are created, right? And one of the main ways of doing this, actually, is what you're doing right now. You go out and you conduct oral histories, you speak to people, you seek to gather this information. Isn't this, after all, what Michela has done? And given us this stunning story that, pushes back on the idea that sexuality was just one way, and one way only, in Jamaica all these years? She goes back and she says not at all, right? This was never quite like this. So, there is my very long answer to your very short question.

Jherane Patmore 39:01  

Who do you think? I guess, this is a two part question. Who do you want to read your work? And who do you think reads your work?

Jacqueline Bishop 39:13  

The second question is easier than the first question. I've been on college campuses. So, I see that everybody's reading it, you know? College boys, girls, you know? All sorts of people are asking me questions about the work. I think my work speaks to a broad cross section of, of people who are interested in the Caribbean, who are interested in Jamaica, or interested in women's stories. Let me just hold up this wonderful, beautiful book here. And I love what the back of this book says, “What unites the voices in this book is not their country of birth or gender, but an unfaltering belief in the power of poetry and poetics, in the gift of music and song, our lessons and meditations on writing and making for women and men, old and young, Jamaican and non-Jamaican alike.” So, I think anybody who is interested in craft, in good writing, if I may say so myself, and, you know, any of the issues that we've talked about today should read this work. You know, I, I must admit that I think I might just be, Jherane and Kristina, slightly older than you guys, just, just… 

Kristina Neil 40:58

Just a smidge. Just a smidge. 

Jacqueline Bishop 41:06

And after I did the, the, the… After the university, the Department of Literatures in English, UWI did that wonderful book launch for this book, there's a really young woman, she came and she said, “Can I interview you for my blog?” And I said, she's in Jamaica, said, and, yes, and you know? And she asked a similar question. And I said, I really enjoyed talking to her because it feels… I will admit one thing, it feels different talking to you, to you, like it felt different talking to her, because it feels like I'm talking to a younger version of myself. So in that sense, it feels different, you know? I will admit to that it does feel different. And I said to her, what I would say to you, you know? Our voices as women and black women and Jamaican black women, Jamaican women, our voices, too, are universal, you know? Our stories, too, are universal. So our stories can be heard by, can, anybody, anybody, because our stories and our voices too are universal. My cat is all over the place. He was sleeping all day, stuck up in the air. And now he's just like, “Well, I don't know who you're talking to. But I want to get in on this story.” (laughs) 

Kristina Neil 42:24

Is that not the nature of cats? 

Jacqueline Bishop 42:28

I want to get in on the story too. And all day today I tried to hug him and kiss him. And he was “Leave me alone!” But now he’s just like, “Mommy's working! Mommy’s working!” Right?

Jherane Patmore 42:44

So just one final question, because we will go all night if we can. Whose responsibility do you think it is to archive?

Jacqueline Bishop 42:52

It’s all our responsibility. It’s all our responsibility in the same way that what is happening to all those young women who are meeting, I’m sorry, in the same way that it’s happening to all those women, young and old who are meeting untimely deaths in Jamaica, and we seem to be stumbling over what is happening on that island, and calling it gender based violence and whatnot, when that can apply to women and men, and in fact it is misogyny, and we cannot seem to call it by its proper name, that’s all our responsibility as well. Our legacy belongs to all of us. Our History belongs to all of us. We have to, each and every one of us, take it into our hands and safeguard and protect it in the same, and try to build the society, the beloved community, the beloved country that we want. The fact of the matter is that certain voices, often times male, get prioritized over other voices, right? And a book like this tries to intervene in those ways and in those discussions and a podcast like this tries to do that as well. But it, it, it’s all our responsibility. Every last one of us, it is our responsibility to say no, we will not forget who Hazel Campbell is. We will amplify her legacy, we will amplify her life. We will hold her up and we will make sure that as many people as possible get to know who she was and the amazing things she contributed to Jamaica. Thank you very much ladies.

Jherane Patmore 44:55

And thank you. But I’m hoping everyone who is listening now, if this is your first time knowing or hearing about Jacqueline Bishop, she’s not kidding when she says she has a lot of Master’s degrees. She also has a lot of books a lot of work that she’s doing. Please check out Jacqueline Bishop, it’s someone who, I’m still not over the fact that I’m talking to you right now because it’s someone, you, you’re someone I admired over the years and for you to slide in our DMs it’s just amazing. What’s the name of your cat by the way?

Jacqueline Bishop 45:30

Salem. His name is Salem.

Jherane Patmore 45:33

Hi Salem. But thank you so much Jac… Our voices as Jamaican women central in your work across the work that you’re doing, ahm, just a part of your life you have made us centre and not the, I guess, the tokenistic idea of talking about marginalized voices. You’ve actually prioritized our craft, you’ve prioritized our stories, and thank you for the work that you’re doing.

Jacqueline Bishop 46:01

Thank you. I miss your beautiful face Kristina.

Kristina Neil 46:04

(laughs) For some reason turning my camera off makes the audio better, so, I dunno. But really, thank you. I think one of my favourite things from this conversation, so far, is you saying that our voices are universal. Like, I don’t know why, but that is supremely profound to me (laughs).

Jacqueline Bishop 46:25

Our voices are universal, it really is.

Jherane Patmore 46:28

Thank you so much for listening to our episode. Remember to follow Rebel Women Lit on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. And if you want to support the amazing work being done by this community, consider becoming a sustaining member. Remember to share this episode and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, a five star review, of course. Stay lit and see you at Book Club.

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 13 - The One About Mental Health & Jamaican Churches

You know the end of Ari Lennox' 'Chicago Boy' where she asks everyone who is not her friend to leave?
That's how this episode feels.

Ashley, Jherane and Kristina have an intimate conversation about their experiences with churches, mental health, and of course books.

Books Mentioned:

The Mothers by Brit Bennett

Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi

Queenie by Candice Carty-Williams

PATSY by Nicole Dennis Benn

The Last Warner Woman by Kei Miller

Augustown by Kei Miller

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 12 -Because We Owe You Five Book(ish) Episodes

One thing about us, we’re gonna intend to talk about one thing and end up talking about 27. It’s been such a long time since we’ve done an episode that everything came pouring out of us. But that’s the beauty of a book club (and the podcasts that are like them) - you get to gush about your favourite things, the things you hate and everything in between with amazing people.

In this episode of the podcast, Ashley, Jherane and Kristina catch each other up on what they’ve been reading; all the reasons Goodreads sucks (and why we’re switching to Storygraph); our vendetta against Alfredo pasta and, perhaps more importantly, why we think Spice and Shenseea would be big fans of Talia Hibbert.

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 9 - 100 Caribbean Books That Shaped Our World

We teamed up with BOCAS Lit Fest to select (not 100) Caribbean books that had an impact on our lives.

Book mentioned:
Krik? Krak! by Edwidge Danticat 
Annie John by Jamaica Kincaid 
A Small Place by Jamaica Kincaid (included in our Patreon travel club)
Beka Lamb by Zee Edgell
Gardening in the Tropics by Olive Senior 
The Fear of Stones and other Stories by Kei Miller 
Caribbean Slavery in the Atlantic World by Verene Shepherd
How Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney 

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 7 - Learning to Love Complicated Mothers

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or search ‘Like A Real Book Club’ wherever you listen to podcasts

We meditate on the complexities of Caribbean motherhood - ladened with a history of patriarchal violence that has architected the tenuous, terrible and beautiful bonds we form with the matriarchs in our lives (and, of course, how these relationships are depicted in Caribbean literature). 

Book mentioned:
Learning To Breathe by Janice-Lynn Mather 
Little Fires Everywhere by Celeste Ng
Patsy by Nicole Dennis-Benn 
Here Comes The Sun by Nicole Dennis-Benn 
The Star Side of Birdhill by Naomi Jackson 
Working Miracles: Women's Lives in the English-Speaking Caribbean by Olive Senior 

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 6 - Does This Make Us Demanding Caribbean Readers?

Is it ok to “feel a way” when a Caribbean author doesn’t use our language and our culture in their work? We love reading novels and poetry from the Caribbean, especially ones written by Jamaican authors, but are we demanding in our expectations? Also, wtf is magical realism?

Books Mentioned Worth Reading:
A Tall History of Sugar by Curdella Forbes
Here Comes The Sun by Nicole Dennis Benn
PATSY by Nicole Dennis Benn 

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 3 - Pages to Screen and Rants in Between

We talk about books that should hit the screens, but not before we struggle to define "gothic novels" as a genre, talk about fast-fashion, and do a small rant about Bookstagram. 

But shout Out To Bookstagrammers We Love: @ColourLit_UK, @2Treads and @IfThisIsParadise

Books mentioned that are worth reading: 
The Confessions of Frannie Langton by Sara Collins
Here Comes The Sun by Nicole Dennis Benn
The Star Side of Bird Hill by Naomi Jackson
Over The Roofs of the World by Olive Senior
Gardening in the Tropics by Olive Senior
Ammerichannah by Chimamanda Adiche
Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison
Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi
Teaching My Mother How To Give Birth Warsan Shire

Like A Real Book Club: Episode 1 - Girl, Woman, Other Book Club Meetup

Like a real book club, Jherane, Kristina, and Ashley talk about books that defined the 2010-2019s and just about everything else.

First episode weirdness we start off a bit formal, talking about the history of RebelWomenLit and our personal reading journies. Then we really get into it: Fangirling over writers, Jherane talks about crying over books, Kristina gets a bit brainy talking about classic vs romantic poetry and Ashley talks about her hobby with street signs.